Author Topic: Stormbird musings.  (Read 2186 times)

Offline Motherland

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2009, 07:44:28 PM »

Why shouldn't an il-2 pilot use the full spectrum of the flight model in order to force the overshoot?



Because it would have forced the pilots eyeballs out of his head ;)

Offline newz

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2009, 09:20:36 PM »
Because it would have forced the pilots eyeballs out of his head ;)
Then the flight model should reflect that as blacking out/redding out.
I have no real world experience of violently ruddering back and forth
with a slight addition of opposite aileron to produce skids as i do in this game.
If the flight model is incorrect then by all means, please change it.

As a  cartoon pilot who frequently ups against overwhelming odds in the il-2 ive got 2 choices
when someone is barreling up my six (and there's usually about 3 or 4 right behind him)......

1 - Be gentle on the stick and die.

2 - Drop flaps , cut throttle , and when he's just the right distance out begin "overshoot manuver"
     and maybe survive long enough to bag 1 more of the NOE 110s and nikis.

Here's some film.
Is that "eyeball popping"?
http://www.415thsquad.com/media/ovrsht2.wmv






 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 09:31:56 PM by newz »
Addicted since tour 62.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2009, 01:39:33 AM »
If you're in a bomber without fighter support, you're playing with fire and are bound to get shot down by an enemy fighter. 

If you're in a tank alone or group of tanks without AA cover then you deserve to get ripped up by an IL-2.

If you're in a wirby/osty without tank support, your playing Rusky roulette in how long it will be before an enemy tank will have you in his sights. 

If you're in a fighter and your gutsy enough to attack a wirby without ords or allied tanks on the ground, then you deserve to get torn up.

Etc etc....

It seems that without exception, if you dare try to perform a certain task without a lateral supporting arms back-up, so to speak, you're bound to get spanked.  The IL-2 gets wooped if it doesnt get support by allied fighters or it goes toe to toe with a wirby.  It is a one dimensional buttkicker, but yet can get it's butt handed right back to it in many more ways.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2009, 07:41:37 AM »
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And yet, despite the overwhelming materiel superiority the Allies brought to bear by the end of the war, in neither the East nor the West were German ground forces completely destroyed/defeated without engaging on the ground. As I have pointed out before, one of the things that separates AHII from reality, if we wish to make the comparison, is the rather unrealistic fact that flyers will outnumber groundlings at any given time by a ratio of at lest 5 to 1, if not more.

Difficult to destroy a properly configured GV column ins Aces High too. At least ones covered with flak. The real issue here is that you almost never see GV columns working together. Yesterday I saw a single wirbel stay between two tanks and give effective support. It was one of the few times I ever saw that. For the most part you have single players dribbling along without supporting each other in GVs, at least to the level we do when in fighters.

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I greatly appreciate the WWs ability for defense as vulch-breaker, that is why I proposed additional field-guns be added if the WW be perked.

BnZ your simply stunning me here. I'll remember this thread when your calling for the field-guns to be perked.

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Apparently you have ignored the many posts where I have lamented the fact that a lone suicide 190 can make a strafing run and disable bombs at a field. THAT is the principal loophole that needs to be close to keep fields from being rendered helpless against being rolled by GV horde missions, that and perhaps a second vehicle hangar. I just think the Il2 is a little TOO effective in that direction, and besides, it might be nice to see a P-47 bombing a Panzer while being shot at by an Ostwind again in the future, instead of the incessant dominance of the Il2 vs. WW.

Yesterday the Nits shot my IL-2s so fulla holes trying to protect 155 in LWO I ran out of bubblgum trying to keep them airborne, "and I was thinking about this thread as I was spiraling down". On a good flight maybe I was looking at only a 3 to 1 disadvantage. I must have been shot on the runway 3 times, shot by tank guns another 3 "fighters forced me low and flat". If you have any kind of advantage in the fight the chances are your going to be able to keep the Storm birds down. Oh, and if your in a fighter? If you have an advantage? The chances are you'll be able to survive. The IL-2 is simply not a "dominating" airplane.

If however, your in a tank with no air or friendly flak around? The odds are your not going to make it. All perking the IL-2 would accomplish anyways is cut down on upping them during base defense. Unlike real life you mostly run into AH Storm birds while they are defending. Taking bases with horde tactics is so easy already. Why make it easier?
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2009, 01:11:10 PM »


If you're in a fighter and your gutsy enough to attack a wirby without ords or allied tanks on the ground, then you deserve to get torn up.



Do you know how easy it is to disable a WW with a fighter?  All you do is dive straight down at it and shoot.  You'll knock out the turret in one pass, rendering the WW useless and can then take your time to kill it.


ack-ack
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2009, 03:45:38 PM »


BnZ your simply stunning me here. I'll remember this thread when your calling for the field-guns to be perked.


WTF? When WWs first came out I was dead set against perking them because I saw they would make the "sport" of shooting airplanes on the runway less viable. Now that they are an ubiquitous town-dropping and mobile ack-dragging option that has made hangar queens out of the Ostwind and M-16, I'm not quite so sure I was right. But the fact remains that I like what they accomplish DEFENSIVELY and thus if they were perked to balance perking the 37MM Il2 package, I'd like numerous field guns of similar ease of use installed at bases.

Yesterday the Nits shot my IL-2s so fulla holes trying to protect 155 in LWO I ran out of bubblgum trying to keep them airborne, "and I was thinking about this thread as I was spiraling down". On a good flight maybe I was looking at only a 3 to 1 disadvantage. I must have been shot on the runway 3 times, shot by tank guns another 3 "fighters forced me low and flat". If you have any kind of advantage in the fight the chances are your going to be able to keep the Storm birds down. Oh, and if your in a fighter? If you have an advantage? The chances are you'll be able to survive. The IL-2 is simply not a "dominating" airplane.

And this war story is relevant how? I never said the Il-2 is a fighter, just incredibly dominant in its a2g mission relative other options.

The fact also remains that if there is any fighter opposition at all, friendly air units usually cannot be bothered to make themselves vulnerable by getting low and slow enough to kill the incredibly tough and half-way nimble Il-2s.


If however, your in a tank with no air or friendly flak around? The odds are your not going to make it. All perking the IL-2 would accomplish anyways is cut down on upping them during base defense. Unlike real life you mostly run into AH Storm birds while they are defending. Taking bases with horde tactics is so easy already. Why make it easier?

I up 5 point Shermans into situations where I ain't gonna make it all the time. In fact I ditch the things rather than drive a long way quite a bit. So yeah, they'd still see SOME base defense use.

I will say this again, since you are not comprehending...the a2g war almost consists of Il2 vs. WW at this point.  I think perhaps a little more variety would be preferable. I don't know why you mention base taking or horde tactics since I support numerous *substantive* options to make it less easy to horde-capture a base, note the dozen or so times I've mentioned in this thread how asinine it is that one suicide 190 can easily disable bombs for an entire base. I also think DAR bars should reach to the ground to defuse incessant NOE sneaks, hangars should be hard enough that a single jabo can't easily take them out, perhaps a second VH hangar should be added, and I think fields could use more powerful and durable manned guns useful against enemy heavy armor.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2009, 04:01:05 PM »
I've had to deal with large gaggles of armor, with Wirbles mixed in.

Primary Rule: Suppress the tripleA. Kill or disable the Wirbles.

How to accomplish rule 1: A mix of IL-2 and A-20s is a good start. Get the IL-2s to draw fire, blast them with the A-20s. When bombs are gone, A-20s draw fire, IL-2 strafe.

Do it right and you will get the opportunity to kill the tanks and you'll push most of the enemy into Wirbles. At that point, friendly armor will be able to handle those guys.

Rearm you A-20s and IL-2s. Repeat as required.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2009, 09:01:38 PM »
Do you know how easy it is to disable a WW with a fighter?  All you do is dive straight down at it and shoot.  You'll knock out the turret in one pass, rendering the WW useless and can then take your time to kill it.


ack-ack

Yeap.  I've disabled a few wirbys that way.   ;)   I try not to get any closer than I have to if I dont have ord or the wirby isnt distracted by another plane.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2009, 12:11:14 AM »
Its kinda funny when people here portray Tigers as helpless thing that IL-2s just slice right thru. A Tiger is a very tough tank to kill with an IL-2, so is a T-34. And a Sherman can take multiple passes as well. Its really only the Panzers which are fairly easy to kill, and the M-8s of course. When there are enemy fighters around its difficult to get the high angle passes on armor because your always dodging fighters, or, streams of 20mm. And just in case my bullets are rubber, or I aint that good, I watched some good players dive into Tigers today. A Tiger is a difficult tank to kill with an IL-2. A-20s with bombs are far more effective.

"Incredibly dominant" is a description that just borders on the silly. You can still take bases with armor. However porking the ords and the VH doesn't automatically guarantee you a victory now. Now you have to fight. And maybe lose your precious cartoon, perked tank before you can tower with your 27 kills from your camping trip. :huh

You see a lot less of that nonsense now dontya? Someone went and gave the baby seals a few big guns. :P
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2009, 12:45:59 AM »


"Incredibly dominant" is a description that just borders on the silly. You can still take bases with armor. However porking the ords and the VH doesn't automatically guarantee you a victory now. Now you have to fight. And maybe lose your precious cartoon, perked tank before you can tower with your 27 kills from your camping trip. :huh



Cripes, its as if I haven't said a damn thing in regards to what I think of the ease of porking/toolshedding a base into semi-helplessness and what should be done about it...

 Read slowly: I think it ought to be much harder to drop ords so you will have some *bombs* to drop on that Tiger trying to steamroll your base.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2009, 12:57:33 AM »
I think the best anti-aircraft vehicle is the Sherman.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2009, 10:45:04 AM »
BnZ this must be a tribal thing. Regarding understanding. You dont know what I'm talking about and I sure as hell have no idea what your talking about. It sounds to me like your double talking. The thread topic isn't "ordinance musings". You have 3 kills in IL-2s of tanks this tour, none the tour before, 5 panzers the tour before that, 4 panzers before that in tour 104, and I cant find one instance of you getting killed while in a Tiger by an IL-2. So one has to wonder exactly why you are in this thread calling the remodeled IL-2......
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And this war story is relevant how? I never said the Il-2 is a fighter, just incredibly dominant in its a2g mission relative other options.

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The fact also remains that if there is any fighter opposition at all, friendly air units usually cannot be bothered to make themselves vulnerable by getting low and slow enough to kill the incredibly tough and half-way nimble Il-2s.

I can only find record of you killing one perked tank in it. A T-34/85 in tour 105. So far this tour you killed 2 M-26s and an M-3. :lol

Let me rephrase, you have practically zero experience in being in either the receiving end or shooting end so why are you here making these statements about it?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 11:12:49 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2009, 11:51:00 AM »
To sum up, my point is that the a2g game seems to have mostly turned into Il2 vs. WW. I think some more variety might be preferable.

It is true that the Il2 mostly turret tanks other than Panzers rather than killing them outright, but if you cripple an enemy tank for friendly ground units to finish off, it has the same result does it not?

The fact that Il2s don't have much luck killing Tigers is another good reason to make the ordinance bunker harder. This is a solution that should have been implemented long ago. I favor a wide spectrum of solutions to encourage quagmires and carnage around bases instead of capture. :)

You have cleverly not used your game I.D. as a forum name so I cannot look up your stats and mock you on some trivial basis. Not too sporting that.  :devil For instance, if I saw you had relatively few 262 kills this tour, I could have said you have no right to say the 262 is fast and has heavy firepower on the grounds of your inexperience. :lol But since I can't look any numbers, thats just a stab in the dark, alas. :frown: :D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 11:58:33 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2009, 04:31:10 AM »
My game name is "bombrich". Your total lack of personal experience is not "trivial" and it points to you, at best, simply spreading rumors. Or, simply making things up. I kinda knew what I was going to find anyways after reading some of your statements.

Go fly the IL-2 for a month, and/or GV in places where you will encounter them, and then come back and talk.
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but if you cripple an enemy tank for friendly ground units to finish off, it has the same result does it not?

Only if you track them. Many times damaged Gvs will just look for supplies after you damage/turret them.

IL-2s vs WWs is simplistic. You actually have to be careful with all ground vehicles. If you come in low and flat tanks will clobber you too. A 0.50 on an m-3 can take an IL-2 our, or, damage it. If your oil gets hit while in one, a common occurance, then you have to turn directly for the field because you only have a few minutes to land it.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Stormbird musings.
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2009, 09:31:25 AM »
Tour 104, 105, and 106. I'll admit I can get tired of a new toy rather quickly, particularly when it doesn't do anything I find particularly fun. Fight with a plane vs. plane-possibly fun. Shootout with a tank vs. tanks...possibly fun. Strafing tanks with an Il2...almost as much fun as strafing a random section of ground after a while. Strafing WWs with an Il2...almost as much fun as running headfirst into a wall after a while. The boredom of providing flak cover for tanks or the annoyance of being shot at/ack dragged in a low alt furball by the flotilla of WWs they bring after they get angry because someone Il2'ed their tank...usually not so fun.

For your next trick, claim I have no experience with the Fw-190 A5 because I haven't registered many kills with it......lately.

Clearly something we need more than the new Il2 gun package in an unlimited fashion, and have needed for a long time to prevent GV horde-rolling, is to make ords porking (and possibly hangar banging) much, much harder. Dive-bombers represent a good air/ground effectiveness balance ingame because they can take out ANY vehicle potentially, yet the vehicles can defend themselves pretty well through mobility, the number of "shots" a divebomber has is quite limited, and it requires grabbing at least a little alt.


My game name is "bombrich". Your total lack of personal experience is not "trivial" and it points to you, at best, simply spreading rumors. Or, simply making things up. I kinda knew what I was going to find anyways after reading some of your statements.

Go fly the IL-2 for a month, and/or GV in places where you will encounter them, and then come back and talk.
Only if you track them. Many times damaged Gvs will just look for supplies after you damage/turret them.

IL-2s vs WWs is simplistic. You actually have to be careful with all ground vehicles. If you come in low and flat tanks will clobber you too. A 0.50 on an m-3 can take an IL-2 our, or, damage it. If your oil gets hit while in one, a common occurance, then you have to turn directly for the field because you only have a few minutes to land it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 10:06:23 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."