The P-40 hates me (mysterious stalling behavior)

[CAP1]

As everyone so far has eluded to, but not yet stated in the clear, It’s not the airspeed, a stall is totally dependent on the Angle of Attack (AOA) of the Relative Wind (RA) and not the speed of the aircraft. 

I WAS FIGHTing against humble.....him in an sbd, me in a p38g.........got into a rolling scissors with him. it was stupid of me to fall into his fight.......but i digress. i was juuuuuuussssst getting him to go out front ever so slightly. then, i got a quick shudder, and the ole 38 o deth snapped in the opposite direction i was rolling in. it took me 3k to recover the ensueing spin, and when i did, he was waiting for me....and smoked the poopoo outta me.

[EskimoJoe]

You're grossly exaggerating here.

Hyperbole is the word your looking for

[Obie303]

I WAS FIGHTing against humble.....him in an sbd, me in a p38g.........got into a rolling scissors with him. it was stupid of me to fall into his fight.......but i digress. i was juuuuuuussssst getting him to go out front ever so slightly. then, i got a quick shudder, and the ole 38 o deth snapped in the opposite direction i was rolling in. it took me 3k to recover the ensueing spin, and when i did, he was waiting for me....and smoked the poopoo outta me.

Snap is great in that SBD.  I'm always amazed at how well he fights in that ol' bird.  Kinda scary too.

Back on topic:
As far as fighting in the P-40.  Find/PM FiLtH.  He frequents these boards and flys the E model quite often.  If you ask him nicely, he might help you out.  Also, try a search of the BBS.  I think this was discussed some time last year too.  And FiLtH did jump in and give some P-40 tips.   

[Demetrious]

You must mean the Y-axis.

No, I do mean the x-axis, my roll axis. Mind you, my y-axis DID have scaling enabled, so I think that was giving some funky inputs. Brief testing seems to show that it's somewhat improved.

They're in the same ballpark waving at each other. Kind of. Cept where AA will spank you, IL-2 will slay you while laughing wickedly.

s everyone so far has eluded to, but not yet stated in the clear, It’s not the airspeed, a stall is totally dependent on the Angle of Attack (AOA) of the Relative Wind (RA) and not the speed of the aircraft.

Relative airflow over the airfoil, yeah. But in these situations, it should have been sufficient...

also.....is that 90 mph stall speed clean, or dirty?

Clean, but come to think of it, in at least some of those situations I had two notches of combat flaps dropped. Some. It's quite possible that the P-40 just doesn't play nice with flaps when you're low on E.

As far as fighting in the P-40.  Find/PM FiLtH.  He frequents these boards and flys the E model quite often.  If you ask him nicely, he might help you out.  Also, try a search of the BBS.  I think this was discussed some time last year too.  And FiLtH did jump in and give some P-40 tips.   

Excellent. I'll go track down the thread now.

[CAP1]

Snap is great in that SBD.  I'm always amazed at how well he fights in that ol' bird.  Kinda scary too.

Back on topic:
As far as fighting in the P-40.  Find/PM FiLtH.  He frequents these boards and flys the E model quite often.  If you ask him nicely, he might help you out.  Also, try a search of the BBS.  I think this was discussed some time last year too.  And FiLtH did jump in and give some P-40 tips.   

1duke1 is anohter kickarse p40 driver.....

[CAP1]

No, I do mean the x-axis, my roll axis. Mind you, my y-axis DID have scaling enabled, so I think that was giving some funky inputs. Brief testing seems to show that it's somewhat improved.

They're in the same ballpark waving at each other. Kind of. Cept where AA will spank you, IL-2 will slay you while laughing wickedly.


Relative airflow over the airfoil, yeah. But in these situations, it should have been sufficient...it's not dude.....i think even on fighters, the critical angle of attack is only about 17 degrees. exceed that, and you get what you got.

Clean, but come to think of it, in at least some of those situations I had two notches of combat flaps dropped. Some. It's quite possible that the P-40 just doesn't play nice with flaps when you're low on E.


Excellent. I'll go track down the thread now.

[Demetrious]

.it's not dude.....i think even on fighters, the critical angle of attack is only about 17 degrees. exceed that, and you get what you got.

I was barely pulling ten in most of those cases, but being slow and dirty might have cinched it. I micromanage flaps a lot, and perhaps I'm not giving them enough time to return to neutral position before pushing my luck? I think that has to be it. The critical AoA is lower at low speeds (less airflow over the airfoil, natch,) and with flaps thrown in...

Besides this little issue though, the P-40E is a wonderful bird. Anything it can't out-turn it can generally out-roll, or vice versa. The psychological factor can't be dismissed, either.

Per Obie's suggestion I searched around a bit with Filth's name in the filter and his old posts seemed to confirm that the P-40 is a right touchy bird at low speeds, so my theory is simply that I haven't been keeping track of my combat flaps enough and the P-40 is very unforgiving of being dirty at low E.

EDIT: Well, Widewing, in this post says the P-40 has the "worst stall departure of any AHII fighter,"  and that it "wallows like a drunk below 150 MPH" (which is percisely where my problems tend to hit) so I guess that's all there is to it.

And you're all lovely for not pointing out that I'm just a moron who forgot to use search. Thanks, that was lovely of y'all 

[Anaxogoras]

Per Obie's suggestion I searched around a bit with Filth's name in the filter and his old posts seemed to confirm that the P-40 is a right touchy bird at low speeds, so my theory is simply that I haven't been keeping track of my combat flaps enough and the P-40 is very unforgiving of being dirty at low E.

I'm pretty sure the P-40 has split flaps.  They tend to be next-to-worthless for combat in aircraft with such a poor thrust:drag ratio.  In the tests I've done the P-40's turn rate decreases with the use of flaps.

[Demetrious]

I'm pretty sure the P-40 has split flaps.  They tend to be next-to-worthless for combat in aircraft with such a poor thrust:drag ratio.  In the tests I've done the P-40's turn rate decreases with the use of flaps.

Interesting. They seem to help me, but then again I'm usually making either slow wide turns to keep my E high or hard break turns into somebody that I don't intend to sustain, so I've never really put them to the test in a proper turnfight. (The P-40s can dump speed nicely in the scissors, but that Allison sure as heck isn't going to get it back for you in a hurry.  )

[CAP1]

And you're all lovely for not pointing out that I'm just a moron who forgot to use search. Thanks, that was lovely of y'all 

no reason to do that to ya...you asked a good question, and there were a lot of good answers for us all to read, and learn from.

 these are the kinds of posts that are good and fun to read.


<<S>>

[FiLtH]

    You may think you are turning gently, but it will flick over at the drop of a hat. Lock your wrist so you dont create any little tweak of motion that will cause it to auger. At slow speed be at full flaps, always ready to raise them at any nose down to gather more speed. Let the flaps do your turning for you.

  Say you are chasing  guys tail and he goes slightly nose up. Lets say you are 1 notch of flap. Gently follow and lead him a bit, and walk the flaps up. This will raise the nose to give you the shot you need without pressing the plane and stalling.

   Give the p40e a month of constant play and you'll rarely use another plane. Ive been flying the 110g alot lately for a change and fly it the same way. To me most of the US stuff acts similar to eachother in use of flaps except maybe the F6. The P47s,F4u,P40,51s all seem to behave the way I prefer as far as flaps go.

   Remember with the P40E, flaps are what make it what it is. Probably why its almost always the thing you lose first from damage. Each plane seems to have its favorite damage loss..flaps is the P40E's. Dont add them to soon..1 notch at outset of fight, and only more if it gets slow. If it does get slow use full flap to end the fight as soon as possible so you can set up to evade the next guy that sure to be on you. Also when in a fight...the time before its a committed slow fight, and the enemy is trying to sucker your E, flap up and down often as needed. Its all timing and gauging when you can commit.

[Anaxogoras]

Wow, that's a very different impression.  I only flew the P-40 intensively for about a week so I'm going to take Filth's word on this one and re-check the flaps on the P-40.  On the other hand, I agree that it loses flaps to damage before anything else.

[Obie303]

FiLtH, you never disappoint us!

[Anaxogoras]

Here are the stats for a complete 360 in seconds, P-40E with 75% fuel:

No flaps: 19.7
1 notch:  18.7
2 notches: 18.6
3 notches: 18.6
4 notches: 20.3

These numbers are approximate, of course, so its best turn-rate is somewhere in the range of 1-3 notches of flaps.  I would guess that 2 notches is optimal, but if you need to decrease your radius go with 3.  4 notches of flaps yields the worst sustained turn-rate, and so I would only go that far if I were trying to force an overshoot.

For comparison's sake, here are the sustained 360 times of typical main arena aircraft:

Spit XVI   15.8
N1K2       16.8
P51D       20.0
F4U-1A    17.6
109 K-4   18.6
Hurri IIC   15.7
P38L       18.1

The trick is to figure out how much decreasing your radius can offset increasing your turn-rate.  For instance, the F4U-1A is known for giving the SpitXVI fits even though the SpitXVI turns faster simply because the Corsair makes a smaller circle.

[FiLtH]

 The fourth I use for the lift not so much the turn. Fighting Spit9s with that better climb it comes in handy thru the turn.

  Another handy practice technique would be to take the 40 nose up to stall, and practice snapping opposite rudder when it falls off and starts to spin. You can do some real slow crazy stuff in it. If you find yourself at risk of scraping yer belly on the ground, train yourself not to yank the stick. It tends to just make it worse, like most planes in here. Try adding flap instead, and just a steady hold on the stick.