F6F-5N

[aenigma]

William Henry F6F-5N Night Fighter September 12, 1944 saw the introduction of the new F6F-5N’s for VF(N)-41 flying from the deck of USS Independence CVL-23. There were 1,432 of the Night Fighter version built with APS-6 radar housed in a pod attached to the starboard wing. This provided pilots with a radar picture of another aircraft up to 5.5 miles away and a ship up to 20 miles. F6F-5N pilots had to undergo a rigorous 29 weeks of schooling where they would learn how to rely totally on their instruments since they would be flying at night in the dark with no visual reference for navigation or altitude. Originally armed with 6 .50 caliber machine guns, 3 per wing, some of the later versions came with 4 .50 caliber machine guns and 2 long barrel Hispano 20mm cannons that replaced the 2 inner .50 caliber guns. The Night Fighters were given strict orders that once they located a plane on radar they couldn’t fire a shot until they could get close enough to identify the target as friend or foe. As it turned out most of the F6F-5N’s flew daytime missions with other versions of the F6F. This would allow the radar equipped Hellcats to locate the enemy and guide their group towards them. The top USN Night Fighter ace was Lt. William E. Henry, Executive Officer (XO) of the VF(N)-41 squadron. He was credited with 6.5 nighttime and 4 daytime victories and the last victory for the USN F6F-5N.









Also, it is documented that some Hellcats were thought to have 20mm Cannons but it turns out that the inner 50 cal was simply extended outward. a 4 bladed prop does not mean more speed but more efficiency for the motor. With all respect to your grandfather, it may be a source of information to you but for it to viable, it needs to documented and filed. I can say how George Washington is my cousin but without proof, it is not valid. Yes, I have proof. 

The point of the forums is to attempt to have a civil conversation; a debate. The only person I saw clueless and shooting down any idea was the first reply who referred to drinking to much. Clue: refers himself to drinking to much. Answer: A Clueless stick.



F6F Hellcat, FV-1 (Model G-50) - USN shipboard fighter. 1pClwM rg; span: 42'10" length: 33'7". Contrary to popular legend, the Hellcat was not specifically designed to cope with the Japanese Zero; it was in preliminary design stages as an improved F4F well before the outbreak of WW2. Planned production of F6F-1 by Canadian Vickers as FV-1 never materialized.

F6F-5 1944 = 2000hp P&W R-2800-10W (v: 366/166/89); new canopy, cowling, fairings, modified tail, underwing bomb racks; some with radar pod. POP: 7,870, of which some were converted as drone controllers -5D and drones -5K for the Korean War; 2 became XF6F-6.

    F6F-5N 1944 = Radar night fighter conversions of F6F-5. POP: 1,434, of which 80 Lend-Lease to Fleet Air Arm as Hellcat II, aka NF-11.

    F6F-5P 1944 = Cameras added.

XF6F-6 1944 = 2100hp R-2800-18W, four-blade prop; v: 417. POP: 2 conversions from F6F-5 [70188, 70913].


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F6F_Hellcat

"The next and most common variant, the F6F-5, featured improvements such as a more powerful R-2800-10W engine housed in a slightly more streamlined engine cowling, spring-loaded control tabs on the ailerons, deletion of the rear-view windows behind the main canopy, an improved, clear view windscreen with a flat armored-glass front panel replacing the curved perspex panel and internal armor glass screen and numerous other minor advances.[9][13] Another improvement in the F6F-5 was the availability of more potent armament than the standard six .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns. Trials with cannon-armed Hellcats were not followed up by a production version; although all F6F-5s could carry an armament mix of a pair of Hispano 20mm (0.79 in.) cannon, one mounted in each of the inboard gun bays, with a minimum of 220 rounds per gun, along with two pairs of .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns, with 400 rounds per gun, this configuration was only used on many later F6F-5N night fighters. [14]

Two F6F-5s were fitted with the 18-cylinder 2,100 hp (1,567 kW) Pratt and Whitney R-2800-18W two-stage blower radial engine which was also used by the F4U-4 Corsair. The new Hellcat variant was fitted with a four-bladed propeller and was called the XF6F-6. The aircraft proved to be the best performer in the series with a top speed of 417 mph.[9] The war ended before this variant could be mass-produced.[15]

14 Kinzey 1987, p. 27.
15 Sullivan 1979, p. 46.

- Kinzey, Bert. F6F Hellcat in detail and scale (D&S Vol.26). Shrewsbury, UK: AirLife Publishing Ltd., 1987. ISBN 1-85310-603-8.
 Kinzey, Bert. F6F Hellcat in detail and scale (D&S Vol.49). Carrollton, Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications Inc., 1996. ISBN 1-888974-00-1.
-Sullivan, Jim. F6F Hellcat in action. Carrollton, Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications Inc., 1979. ISBN 0-89747-088-5.

[aenigma]

my grandfather worked for pratt and whitney and started in 1942. he was the lead draftsmen and personally watched testing and the intial deployment of the refitted f6f-5

That is all fine Thor, just it needs to be verified aka Documented and filed. From all the research I have done so far, 4 bladed Hellcat's were not seen in combat. I am not saying I am 100% on this but was not able to find any source that states 4 bladed hellcats saw action. All points to experimental 'cats.

Why a 4 blade? More power? That is engine configuration.

[AWwrgwy]

you want to talk limited action. the f4u wasnt carrier qualified till very late in the war. yet we seem to have more than enuf versions of that flying around. the reason it wasnt qualified was the visibility was horrible when on approach to the carrier. and they had a tendancy to slip the tail twards the superstructure of the carrier. heres a great point, EVERY HELLCAT PRODUCED WAS CAPABLE OF REPLACING A PAIR OF .50s WITH A PAIR OF 20mm. was and option from the start. a gun package wouldnt be hard to do. while we are at it do you guys think they should put in all the p-40 versions ?         or is getting what we have all set and done to much? 

The F4u was carrier qualified from its initial deployment.  It was removed for logistical reasons.  There was one or two F4u squadrons on carriers vs. dozens of F6 squadrons.  Getting spare parts and getting them to the right place was problematical.

F6's were capable of mounting 20mm cannons but rarely did.  Again, logistics and the U.S. military decided early on that there was an advantage with all .50 cal. armed fighters.

More P-40 versions?  Would it serve a purpose?

I just think the "I want the uber (rare) cannon  bird is a whine for a plane to compensate for a lack of (something) in ability.  Fly a C hog.  They have big cannons.....



wrongway

[aenigma]

The F4u was carrier qualified from its initial deployment.  It was removed for logistical reasons.  There was one or two F4u squadrons on carriers vs. dozens of F6 squadrons.  Getting spare parts and getting them to the right place was problematical.

F6's were capable of mounting 20mm cannons but rarely did.  Again, logistics and the U.S. military decided early on that there was an advantage with all .50 cal. armed fighters.

More P-40 versions?  Would it serve a purpose?

I just think the "I want the uber (rare) cannon  bird is a whine for a plane to compensate for a lack of (something) in ability.  Fly a C hog.  They have big cannons.....



wrongway

Actually, he has turned into one lethal F6F pilot. He is just wanting to see different variants of the plane. We do have some variants of other aircraft so why not more on a popular plane. Personally, it would be a good idea to throw in a night fighter not because of night time flights which does not exist often in AH but to use them like an "AWACS" type of strategy. Read my previous reply as in the real war that is what they did. Not just the F6F-5N but other night fighters like the P61. I would like to see HTC develop the A-26 Invader first before any of these.

[Saxman]

you want to talk limited action. the f4u wasnt carrier qualified till very late in the war. yet we seem to have more than enuf versions of that flying around. the reason it wasnt qualified was the visibility was horrible when on approach to the carrier. and they had a tendancy to slip the tail twards the superstructure of the carrier. heres a great point, EVERY HELLCAT PRODUCED WAS CAPABLE OF REPLACING A PAIR OF .50s WITH A PAIR OF 20mm. was and option from the start. a gun package wouldnt be hard to do. while we are at it do you guys think they should put in all the p-40 versions ?         or is getting what we have all set and done to much? 

Talk about apples and oranges.

The F4U wasn't carrier qualified but was HEAVILY engaged in the Pacific from land bases with the US Marine Corps from February of 1943 until the end of the war (as opposed to the F6F, which didn't see combat until September of that year) with as many as 10,000 built during WWII (~2000 produced after the war). The Corsair is in much of the same situation as the 109: produced in a large number of variants with different capabilities and uses.

F4U-1 - Initial combat version that saw action throughout 1943. Ours is a later -1 with water injection. I'd really like to see HTC remove WEP to downgrade her to an earlier model.

F4U-1A - First major upgrade. Water injection, bubble canopy. Ours is a late -1A with the addition of the paddle prop. Removing WEP from the -1 would be a further (and IMO welcome) differentiation between these two. Arguably the best pure dogfighter of the non-perked Hogs.

F4U-1D - Next major upgrade to see action. Removal of wing tanks, further canopy modifications (removal of the struts retained in the 1A). Most significantly a DRASTIC increase in ordinance load. The 1D adds a second bomb hard point and eight rocket stubs. This is HARDLY an insignificant difference from the 1A. The 1D--particularly those operating from land bases--could actually carry up to 4000lbs of bombs in addition to the rockets, including the center pylon (2000lber) which I continue to request (and Tiny Tims). She's the best bomb truck of the lineup, and arguably one of the best jabos in the game.

F4U-1C - 200 built, four 20mm cannon in place of the .50cal. Stubs for four rockets, plus the same two ordinance pylons as the 1D.

F4U-4 - Ultimate version to see combat in WWII. Drastically improved engine power plus the addition of a four-bladed paddle prop. MAJOR increases in acceleration and rate of climb--all areas where the earlier Hogs suffered. Something around 1500 or so were deployed to the Pacific. Best fighter in the game.

The only F4U variant to see combat we're missing is the F4U-2 night fighter. I'd love to see her added, too, but I understand that there would be VERY limited usefulness even in Scenario play.

Contrast this with the F6F which had TWO MAIN VARIANTS, the F6F-3 and -5. The only real subvariants to see use were the -3E and N, and -5N night fighters which are in the EXACT same situation as the F4U-2: Nice to have, but their utility in the game is going to be virtually non-existent so there's other aircraft that should be added first. I ALSO would like to see the -3, and wonder why HTC didn't add her as the -5 is inappropriate for the mid-war period. But the reason we don't have half a dozen F6Fs is because there WEREN'T half a dozen F6F variants.

Also, the 20mm cannon was mounted on the 5N, and the 5N ONLY. NO standard -5s carried the 20mm in combat. It DOES NOT MATTER that the plane was built with the capability. It did NOT SEE COMBAT in that configuration, so we WILL NOT GET IT.

[Thor84]

the hellcats strength in this covorsation is also its weakness. the hell cat saw no major upgrades due to lack of need. rarely does an aircraft come out first time and not need a revamp. the hellcat provided this. unlike most era aircraft the hellcat didnt need 5 to 10 versions because it was already good at its job. the major improvements were engine and the advent of the high velocity rockets. untill that is they developed the radar units for it and used it as a night fighter/squadron lead aircraft. point being is why not have it? wouldnt take much in the way of modeling it with the hellcat in the game. hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar. there are plenty of aircraft that should be modeled into the game. im asking for a slightly better version of something thats already here. 


side note, i think that the average player under estimates the hellcat when they see it on the battlefield.

[Thor84]

o and the 4 blade is just a lil better at sustaining speed during manuvers.  4 blade are high torque. 2 blades are high speed but fall off quikly when in a climb or hard turn. with a 4 blade prop you sacrifice a little speed but are able to keep more of it longer while in hard turns and climbs.

[Saxman]

the hellcats strength in this covorsation is also its weakness. the hell cat saw no major upgrades due to lack of need. rarely does an aircraft come out first time and not need a revamp. the hellcat provided this. unlike most era aircraft the hellcat didnt need 5 to 10 versions because it was already good at its job. the major improvements were engine and the advent of the high velocity rockets. untill that is they developed the radar units for it and used it as a night fighter/squadron lead aircraft. point being is why not have it? wouldnt take much in the way of modeling it with the hellcat in the game. hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar. there are plenty of aircraft that should be modeled into the game. im asking for a slightly better version of something thats already here. 


side note, i think that the average player under estimates the hellcat when they see it on the battlefield.

Will you give it a rest rubbing it off over the 20mm gun package? It's NOT going to happen because on the F6F we have in the game IT WAS NOT USED. This is turning into as irritating a conversation as the n00kie and B-25 off a CV threads.

IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.
IF we get the 5N I'd accept a PERKED option for the 20mm. BUT ONLY for the 5N because it was the only @$%&ing F6F that ever carried it in combat. And it would HAVE to be a perked option because even THEN it was exceedingly rare.

[Karnak]

It would be nice to see the F6F-3 and correct performance for the F6F-5.

No cannons though.  If that got added all you'd see in the game were cannon armed F6Fs when they were a tiny, tiny minority in WWII.

[kilz]

Will you give it a rest rubbing it off over the 20mm gun package? It's NOT going to happen because on the F6F we have in the game IT WAS NOT USED. This is turning into as irritating a conversation as the n00kie and B-25 off a CV threads.

IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.
IF we get the 5N I'd accept a PERKED option for the 20mm. BUT ONLY for the 5N because it was the only @$%&ing F6F that ever carried it in combat. And it would HAVE to be a perked option because even THEN it was exceedingly rare.

i believe this is the wishlist Fourm. which means this gent has every right to wish for the F6F-5N all he wants.

Its this community that starts crap about anything anyone thinks would be fun to have in the game. He pays for this game like everyone else. now let him speak his mind and wish for something.

if yall would like to open a debate about it goto the Gen. Fourms and do it. leave this crap out of the wishlist fourms.

all in all Thor not a bad wish. if it was put up on a vote like HTC has been doing the past few planes we have gotten i doubt it would be voted in. however i think the radar thing would be cool. 

[kilz]

It would be nice to see the F6F-3 and correct performance for the F6F-5.

 

[Saxman]

i believe this is the wishlist Fourm. which means this gent has every right to wish for the F6F-5N all he wants.

Its this community that starts crap about anything anyone thinks would be fun to have in the game. He pays for this game like everyone else. now let him speak his mind and wish for something.

if yall would like to open a debate about it goto the Gen. Fourms and do it. leave this crap out of the wishlist fourms.

all in all Thor not a bad wish. if it was put up on a vote like HTC has been doing the past few planes we have gotten i doubt it would be voted in. however i think the radar thing would be cool. 

IF we get night fighters, I wouldn't mind a 5N alongside the F4U-2 and P-61, and night-fighter variants of the 110 and Ju-88.

Try reading my whole post. I'm NOT against SOMEDAY adding night fighters. What I object to and he KEEPS asking for in this thread is the 20mm package on the standard -5 because, which was NEVER utilized by any -5 in combat. ONLY the 5Ns--and a handful at that--ever did. The 20mm should not be added to the -5.

[aenigma]

Try reading my whole post. I'm NOT against SOMEDAY adding night fighters. What I object to and he KEEPS asking for in this thread is the 20mm package on the standard -5 because, which was NEVER utilized by any -5 in combat. ONLY the 5Ns--and a handful at that--ever did. The 20mm should not be added to the -5.

He is just trying to express his want of the 5N with cannons as an option to fly. It is his thread and wish so a civil debate is all that is needed. I like these wishlist threads for it starts a conversation in which you really find out who knows what about an Aircraft if anything at all.


Can we have subs now??   

[Saxman]

Read HIS entire post:

hell, improve the existing f6f and throw a gun package in and call it a day till people really want the challenge of having to deal with aircraft that dont need ground radar.

He's asking for 20mm on the standard -5. NOT for a 5N with cannon. And he's been civilly told WHY it won't happen, but he keeps dragging it out.

[BigPlay]

Somebody get me a history book.
When in gods name did the tbm carry a mounted radar?
And the F6F-5N was, well... idk never heard of it. I watch the military channel (yes i like to watch it...) and they never said anything about 20mm cannons and radar on a F6F Hellcat.

Ive got to stop drinking... Its getting to make me think a B-17 can launch a Black hawk heli and carry 21 gunners... or 12 gunners... Eh, i give up. Give him what he wants.

-FYB

F6F-5N did have a crude radar pod on the end of it's right wing,There is some confusion on wheather the plane did have 20m's but most sources say that it was armed with 6 50's only. There was some gun barrel length's changed most likely for gunflash reasons.