He219 / Me410

[BigPlay]

So why do you think that these claims on the 20 lancs are false? I read the pilots story that shot down 5 Lancs in one sortie. Werner was a highly decorated pilot. If you know anything about Luftwaffe victory claims then you would know that not only his radar operator's word but plane wreckage and gun camera footage (if applicable) would also be used to verify the claim.

This was my post you made refrence to. The 20 Lancs were mentioned as was the 5. I made no mention about the 6 mossies being shot down by Werner Strieb.

[Scherf]

Bzzzt. The quote was "In 10 days 3 prototypes shot down 20 British bombers and 6 Mossies. "


The story about the 6 Mossies is bogus.

[shreck]

ME 410 would be nice, although if modeled corectly would be easy fodder for most other aircraft in AH !

[moot]

ME 410 would be nice, although if modeled corectly would be easy fodder for most other aircraft in AH !

Referring to, specificaly?

[shreck]

Referring to, specificaly?

Coming from the 210 model, the 410 shared much of the stability and manuverability flaws in its predecessor. The 603 engines cured much of the power problems very satisfactorily, yet turn performance was still very poor. I believe it should actually perform worse than the 110 asside from the engine power!  It is Damn sexy though! In it's attack mode I'm sure it was very deadly. The ability for it to defend itself by manouvre is what I'm refering to!

[1Boner]

Are either of these planes as manuverable or more manuverable than the A-20?

I've seen some guys in here fly the A-20 like it was a bat outta hell !

But regardless of manuverability, either plane would be a welcome addition.

[33Vortex]

I've also seen guys who fly the A-20 like the devil, however it is still a easy kill. Most any fighter will outlast the A-20 in a prolonged fight however if you let yourself be surprised you could get killed before having the chance to turn the fight to your favor.

[splitatom]

there are some very good a-20 pilots that will give you a hard time but the a 20 is big and gets shot down by the wirbles a lot

[FLOTSOM]

Scherf

The He 219 had an auspicious combat debut. On the night of 11-12 June 1943, Werner Streib flew the V9 and shot down five bombers, before crashing on landing.[2] In the next ten days the three Heinkels He 219A-0 pre-production aircraft would shoot down a total of 20 RAF aircraft, including six of the previously "untouchable" de Havilland Mosquito fighter/bombers. Greatly encouraged, Kammhuber continued to press for immediate production

From September 1944 through to May 1945 a total of 92 night-flying Mosquitoes of all marks flying bombing, target marking, intruder and nightfighter operations were lost

now maybe wiki is not the best form of resource material, (alot of inaccuracies) but for a quick check on the issue they do show that the claim of the 6 kills was recorded and that enough night fighters were lost during the war that this claim could hold some validity.

so instead of offering an empty and baseless argument why dont you show where your information that this is an inaccuracy comes from.

as has been proven over many issues, the allies were far more likely to falsify and/or exaggerate reports than the germans were, (the battle of kursk, number of air to air kills as opposed to those actually killed on the ground ect) i believe it is upon you as the disputer of the claim to offer some proof aside from your "cause i said so" to support your claim.

[moot]

Coming from the 210 model, the 410 shared much of the stability and manuverability flaws in its predecessor. The 603 engines cured much of the power problems very satisfactorily, yet turn performance was still very poor. I believe it should actually perform worse than the 110 asside from the engine power!  It is Damn sexy though! In it's attack mode I'm sure it was very deadly. The ability for it to defend itself by manouvre is what I'm refering to!

No, what is your source? Where did you read this / who wrote that?
Here's another anecdotic data point (from here):

Just browsed through Johannes Kaufmann´s memoirs. He gives a very favourable assessment of the Me210 compared to the Bf110. He does not consider the handling difficult at all.
reply to this:
Well he had air sense due to prior service on the Bf110, so when the Me210 began to try to break into a ground loop, he was able to control it. And this was the main problem with the Me210, the problem of ground looping the a/c on take-off and landing.

Yes, he was very disappointed when, after the retraining onto the Me210 was halted, he had to return to the Bf110.

[Charge]

410A1 vs. Mossie XVI
Wingloading 168kg/m2 -> 153kg/m2 (empty weights)
Powerloading 1,76hp/kg -> 1,89hp/kg (empty weights)

While inferior in numbers the 410 does not look all that bad compared to Mossie and I'd also like to see sources claiming 410 to be unstable.

-C+

[Karnak]

I count 107 Mosquito bombers that failed to return from September 1, 1944 through April, 1944 out of 16,191 sorties in that time period.  That is a loss rate of 0.66%  No Mosquito Bomber failed to return in May, 1945.

In the same period a year earlier, September 1st, 1943 through April 1944, I count 35 Mosquito bombers that failed to return out of 4109 sorties.  That is a loss rate of 0.85%.


The loss of Mosquito bombers went down slightly in the period that the He219 was active compared to the same period a year earlier.

[thrila]

Bzzzt. The quote was "In 10 days 3 prototypes shot down 20 British bombers and 6 Mossies. "
The story about the 6 Mossies is bogus.

I don't believe any mosquitos flown by RAF bomber command were shotdown at night in June '43, evidence suggests only 1 mosquito was lost during June.

On 14th June 1943 mosquito IX LR501, assigned to 1409 meteorlogical flight was shotdown on a weather reconnaissance sortie by 190's at 28,000ft near Mayenne, France.  http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1596  No other mosquitos were lost in June, this website cooperates with known RAF Bomber Command Mosquitos night losses below.

[FLOTSOM]

I don't believe any mosquitos flown by RAF bomber command were shotdown at night in June '43, evidence suggests only 1 mosquito was lost during June.

On 14th June 1943 mosquito IX LR501, assigned to 1409 meteorlogical flight was shotdown on a weather reconnaissance sortie by 190's at 28,000ft near Mayenne, France.  http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1596  No other mosquitos were lost in June, this website cooperates with known RAF Bomber Command Mosquitos night losses below.

(Image removed from quote.)

now that makes for a very strong argument.

which is the kind of support that should be presented when making direct arguments for or against something stated by someone else.

arguments presented like this help prevent these threads from disseminating into insult contests heated up over unsupported opinions.

<SALUTE> Thrila

[Baumer]

Very nice information Thrila, I do have one question.

Were night Mosquito missions only carried out by RAF bomber command?

I thought some Mosquito's were assigned to RAF fighter command?

just curious and thanks for the site and the data, like FLOTSOM said, presenting data helps resolve the discussion in the best way.

   Baumer