He219 / Me410

[Karnak]

FYI,  Thrila's chart is the one I took the information for the post right above his from.  As a matter of fact, if you look at the link he used, it is my chart that I uploaded after copying it from one of my Mosquito books.


Although looking at it closer now, I erroneously assigned those written off due to damage after returning to the "failed to return" category.

Mosquito bombers had a shockingly low loss rate.

[33Vortex]

Wasn't called the "wooden wonder" for nothing.

In a way the Germans paid tribute to the Mosquito by naming the Ta154 Moskito, but I guess you're all familiar with that story.

[FTJR]

Very nice information Thrila, I do have one question.

Were night Mosquito missions only carried out by RAF bomber command?

I thought some Mosquito's were assigned to RAF fighter command?

just curious and thanks for the site and the data, like FLOTSOM said, presenting data helps resolve the discussion in the best way.

   Baumer

Mosquitos were operated by Fighter Command and Coastal Command as well.

[Scherf]

I believe it is upon you as the disputer of the claim to offer some proof aside from your "cause i said so" to support your claim.

BS - I don't do "prove the negative" anymore. Fanboi wants to make the claim that 6 Mossies were shot down, he can do the work to go back it up. Names dates times places targets.

[Karnak]

Very nice information Thrila, I do have one question.

Were night Mosquito missions only carried out by RAF bomber command?

I thought some Mosquito's were assigned to RAF fighter command?

just curious and thanks for the site and the data, like FLOTSOM said, presenting data helps resolve the discussion in the best way.

   Baumer

If the Mosquito in question has guns it is pretty much part of Fighter Command or Coastal Command.  All of the night-fighter Mosquitoes were part of Fighter Command.  FB.Mk VIs, like we have in AH, served in both Fighter Command and Coastal Command.

[FLOTSOM]

BS - I don't do "prove the negative" anymore. Fanboi wants to make the claim that 6 Mossies were shot down, he can do the work to go back it up. Names dates times places targets.

so in essence your the type of person that runs his mouth just to talk trash and instigate an argument in a thread. i believe that would be called trolling. you live under bridges too?

from what i found on wiki it would at first appear that his argument was correct, until that is it was view against the light of what appears to be more reasonable and credible sources that dispute it. now its back up for discussion with most readers im sure leaning towards the losses reports instead of the wiki write up.

point is that had someone else not done the work to support your claims you would look like a fool in the light of what was available for proof. there was apparently reasonable cause to establish his argument and you had squat but lip service to offer. doesnt really make your opinion a very credible one.

now on the other hand if you dont know where to find the information supporting your side of the discussion then just say you dont know where it is or ask if someone here does know where or if they can find and post it for you. those are perfectly acceptable, at least in my eyes, reasons for putting forth a differing view that you are supporting by memory. there is always some one here with or willing to hunt down any information you may want.

just dont be a jack-off when you enter a thread, instead of starting an empty and unsupported argument try to have a conversation. you may find that there are alot of not so stupid people in here who would like to hear what you have to say as long as you present it in a fashion that is respectful and not just antagonistic.

[thrila]

Mosquitos were operated by Fighter Command and Coastal Command as well.

Until i read baumers post i hadn't even given it a thought.  I looked into it and RAF bomber command didn't start acquiring it's own night-fighter force until late '43, so night fighter losses would show up soley in RAF fighter command's losses.  It is entirely possible that the He-219 shotdown a bunch of mosquitos.  I would like to solve this one way or the other so i've decided to buy a book on RAF fighter command operational losses.

Thanks for the charts karnak
<S> flot

[Scherf]

It's called Fighter Command Losses, thrila, by Norman Franks.

The other one is the Fighter Command War Diaries, also by Franks.

Get 'em from the library though, you'll be wasting your money otherwise, if it's this issue you're after.

[Karnak]

FLOTSAM,

Scherf has more info than I do on the Mosquito by far.  That he doesn't want to bother with fanboys by searching through tons of info is understandable when it is the person making the claim who needs to back it up with hard data.  Wikipedia is not hard data, nor is it evidence.  If he wanted to back it up he could have gone to wikipedia and looked at the references their article uses, then found those sources and used that.  Encyclopedias of any type should never be used directly as a reference.

[FLOTSOM]

FLOTSAM,

Scherf has more info than I do on the Mosquito by far.  That he doesn't want to bother with fanboys by searching through tons of info is understandable when it is the person making the claim who needs to back it up with hard data.  Wikipedia is not hard data, nor is it evidence.  If he wanted to back it up he could have gone to wikipedia and looked at the references their article uses, then found those sources and used that.  Encyclopedias of any type should never be used directly as a reference.

i guess my point was that if you dispute a statement made, then give solid grounds for it. this is the best way to keep these threads honest and for those of us who do not know to all of the facts to learn them correctly.

too many threads that started out as a good conversation have digressed into insult contests that serve no purpose and nobody gets anything out of it.

if you make a statement stand behind it with some form of support, or if you dont have the support on hand give a direction for those of us interested to start looking in.

i guess im just tired of seeing every conversation turned into trash so maybe i was a little touchy in my post, for my lack of discretion i apologize.

Scherf thanx for the titles, i will go to the library when i have the time.

<SALUTE> all

[BigPlay]

FLOTSAM,

Scherf has more info than I do on the Mosquito by far.  That he doesn't want to bother with fanboys by searching through tons of info is understandable when it is the person making the claim who needs to back it up with hard data.  Wikipedia is not hard data, nor is it evidence.  If he wanted to back it up he could have gone to wikipedia and looked at the references their article uses, then found those sources and used that.  Encyclopedias of any type should never be used directly as a reference.

I found that info about the Mossie's from a few websites not just Wiki . I also have a copy of "fighter Ace's of the Luftwaffe" that contains the story narrated by Werner Streib who shot down 5 Lancs in one night with the He219. It isn't a stretch that 6 Mossies were shot down by 219's. I'm sure that if in fact they were shot down it most likely was by surprise and not plane speed or handling .Now whether the plane was all it was suppose to be is another issue but it was described by Streib to be with further development a suitable replacement as a frontline night fighter for the Luftwaffe. To me Flotsum is correct in asking where Scherf gets his info. To just boldly make statements in opposition to someones post without backing information is rather antagonistic. Your statement about Mossie's manhandling He219's is a also a baseless post . I asked you where that info could be found with no answer.

[AWwrgwy]

I don't believe any mosquitos flown by RAF bomber command were shotdown at night in June '43, evidence suggests only 1 mosquito was lost during June.

On 14th June 1943 mosquito IX LR501, assigned to 1409 meteorlogical flight was shotdown on a weather reconnaissance sortie by 190's at 28,000ft near Mayenne, France.  http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1596  No other mosquitos were lost in June, this website cooperates with known RAF Bomber Command Mosquitos night losses below.

(Image removed from quote.)

Stupid question on the chart....  Where is June 1943?  This is the month in question and it is not on there.  I read the same info on Mossie losses in Capt. Brown's book.  Of course he says "allegedly".


wrongway

[hlbly]

Good one wrngway . I don't see any data for June 43 either .

[FLOTSOM]

Good one wrngway . I don't see any data for June 43 either .

thats funny! i looked and saw may went down one and didnt even think to look that it wasnt june! what a dork that i didnt catch that! 

good eyes people.

course hlbly this doesnt change the fact that your still a snaggled tooth red neck who digs watching the sunsets in the company of llamas!

[moot]

Any statements not backed by evidence are questionable, especialy if they're going against more established assumptions and moreso if they're not "sky is blue" type of self-evident statements.  I don't think there's any reason to get angry here, but imo Scherf did nothing wrong asking for evidence to back up the Mossie kill claims that apparently have already been disputed for a while.. Anyway, water under the bridge here.

I reckon the 219 was a pretty sluggish plane, however well-mannered it might have been in comparison with the 410.  It was considerably larger and roughly twice as heavy, despite being propelled by "only" the same engines as the 410.  Did the 219 have leading edge slats?  It seems like the 410 did.  It's looking like the 410 would be the better plane to be in (all other things being equal) in AH.

The figures I've found for the 410 and Mk.VI show that the 410 would actualy be a little better once the ord was gone:

		He219	Me410	Mossie
wingload
	empty	51.4	33	31
	t/o	70	63	40
Powerload (hp / klbs)
	empty	140	270	230
	t/o		166	178
Weight(k lbs)
	empty	25	13	14.3
	t/o		21	18.5
Area		478	390	454
Power	2x	1750	1750	1645

There's no leading edge flaps on the Mossie and although the Mossie might be cleaner (would explain the same topspeed despite power deficit), it doesn't have nearly as much power per lean weight as the 410. 

Does anyone have a speed/altitude chart for the 410?