He219 / Me410

[Karnak]

Stupid question on the chart....  Where is June 1943?  This is the month in question and it is not on there.  I read the same info on Mossie losses in Capt. Brown's book.  Of course he says "allegedly".


wrongway

No Bomber Command Mosquitoes were lost in June, 1943, thus it isn't on the list.

[Karnak]

Moot,

Which mark of the Mosquito are you using for comparison?  Power being listed as 1300 makes me think you are looking at an early mark, one that entered service 2+ years prior to the Me410 or He210.  Our Mk VI in AH has two 1645hp engines and entered service in June, 1943 for example

[moot]

Thanks, our mossie is what I care about for this argument.. gonna edit the figures in that table.  Do you have a definite take-off weight with fuel and ammo, no bombs?

[Karnak]

Thanks, our mossie is what I care about for this argument.. gonna edit the figures in that table.  Do you have a definite take-off weight with fuel and ammo, no bombs?

No, but I think AH is pretty accurate in that so if you take the smaller ammo load and full fuel the E6B should tell you the correct weight.  Keep in mid that the range on it is nuts with full fuel so most people in AH take 50%.  I am not sure where the Me410 and He219 will stand on that though.  I'd go with full fuel.  It should be close to 19,000-20,000lbs.

[moot]

E6B in AH, duh.. thanks.
19klbs for the Me410, right?  The He219 would be a lot heavier, already 25k empty.  I think it's outta the competition already

[Karnak]

E6B in AH, duh.. thanks.
19klbs for the Me410, right?  The He219 would be a lot heavier, already 25k empty.  I think it's outta the competition already

Sorry, I added that after.  I meant the Mossie 6 should be about 19,000lbs.

I show 13,560lbs empty for the 410 and 23,483lbs at max loaded.

[moot]

Right, 23.5 is about what I saw for max t/o, but that's with the ordnance included, right?  I'm trying to do this for dogfighting trims. AH E6B says 18,725lbs for 50% fuel and large ammo load in the Mossie.

Maybe I can get a pretty accurate estimate if I find the tankage and unit-weight of fuel used, and ammo counts for a medium-gunned Me410. I'll pick a fuel load that gives about the same range as 50% in the Mossie.  Looks like I'd better do that, cause the mossie goes from 14.3klbs empty to 18.7 at full ammo and half fuel, but the 410 goes from 13k to 21 for it's "take-off" weight as listed on the web.

[AWwrgwy]

No Bomber Command Mosquitoes were lost in June, 1943, thus it isn't on the list.

I thought the same thing initially.  No Bomber Command Mosquitoes were lost in May, 1945 and we know that because it is on the list.

Just makes me wonder.


wrongway

[Karnak]

I thought the same thing initially.  No Bomber Command Mosquitoes were lost in May, 1945 and we know that because it is on the list.

Just makes me wonder.


wrongway

True.  That is odd.  Maybe the data for May, 1943 was lost?  That chart is taken from a book published in 1967.  It is also possible that the chart is simply inconsistent.

[AWwrgwy]

True.  That is odd.  Maybe the data for May, 1943 was lost?  That chart is taken from a book published in 1967.  It is also possible that the chart is simply inconsistent.

Google search for "Mosquito losses June 1943" came up with De Havilland Mosquito By Ian Thirsk, Stuart Howe

Mosquito bombers flew a total of 39,795 sorties during the Second World War, delivering 26,867 tons of bombs.  Losses amounted to 254 aircraft representing a loss rate of 0.63 percent, the lowest of any aircraft type in Bomber Command.

Don't know if this total is correct or not, but the chart shows 196 losses vs. 254 here.


wrongway

[Baumer]

What seems odd to me is that all of these sources only talk about RAF Bomber Command losses, and they seem to leave out Fighter Command and Coastal Command.

Getting back to the point of the original post, I'd personally like to have the He-219 in the game, however, the Me-410 is one that should be added first. It was used in greater numbers (I believe) and would do more to fill out the late war Luftwaffe plane set, for special events.

[Scherf]

Hi Flotsom:

Thanks for your post. My reply to you was abrupt and rude, for which I apologise.

My view still stands, though. As Karnak very kindly points out, I do have a great deal of information about this. However, when it comes to proving a negative, it's never enough.

So, these days, I just call BS. If people want to claim six Mossies were shot down by He 219s during the period in question, fine. Let them back it up with, as posted, names dates times places targets etc. In this particular case, they don't, because they can't, because there is no information, because it didn't happen.

As I said initially, this is one of the great enduring but baseless myths.

<S>

i guess my point was that if you dispute a statement made, then give solid grounds for it. this is the best way to keep these threads honest and for those of us who do not know to all of the facts to learn them correctly.

too many threads that started out as a good conversation have digressed into insult contests that serve no purpose and nobody gets anything out of it.

if you make a statement stand behind it with some form of support, or if you dont have the support on hand give a direction for those of us interested to start looking in.

i guess im just tired of seeing every conversation turned into trash so maybe i was a little touchy in my post, for my lack of discretion i apologize.

Scherf thanx for the titles, i will go to the library when i have the time.

<SALUTE> all

[Scherf]

Google search for "Mosquito losses June 1943" came up with De Havilland Mosquito By Ian Thirsk, Stuart Howe

Don't know if this total is correct or not, but the chart shows 196 losses vs. 254 here.


wrongway

I think he's including Day Bomber losses, possibly Met sorties as well.

[thrila]

Cheers for the heads up scherf, i found a copy of 'fighter command losses 1942-1943' - one of the pluses of being unemployed is that i have lots of spare time to do silly things like hunting for books.

There were a total of 8 mosquito losses (+1 written off) for the month of June '43 . Only 2 of these were night fighter losses- one on 20/21 and the other 29/30, only the first of these correlates to the dates of the He-129 claims.  Does anyone know where the He219 operated? Both of these mosquitos losses were believed to have crashed into the sea off the coast of southern england.

The evidence from bomber and fighter command losses combined suggests the he129 did not shoot down 6 mosquitos duringJune 1943.

I can't get my scanner to work on vista so i'll setup my old PC this evening to scan and post the pages.

[FLOTSOM]

Moot dont mean to continue highjacking your thread but...........

my problems believing whole heartedly in the german claim that "we shot down 6 Mossies during june at night" story, has always been;

1 wasnt the mossie virtually invisible to german radar?

2 isnt june and july notoriously heavy fog months over the channel and northern france?

if these are correct assessments of the facts, (purely based on memory derived from multiple varying sources) then how did the german night fighters see or even know that the mossies were present?

i remember reading along time ago a book written by a german 190 pilot ("defending berlin" or "in defense of berlin" or something like that) and he talked about a plane following german night fighters back to base in order to locate the german radar towers and the locations of fighter bases. he said the german radar wouldnt pick up these planes so the fighters leading them in wouldnt know he was being followed. he said many inexperienced fighters wouldnt circle looking for any planes trailing them but instead would head straight in to land, so many new german pilots were shot down upon landing because of this blindness to this mystery plane stalking him.

was this the mossie he was describing or just a mythical boogy man/plane that the germans invented to give a face to the fear and frustration they had at being repeatedly attacked on landing at night?

<S> all good conversation!!