He219 / Me410

[Scherf]

I'm not sure the Mosquito was ;articularly stealthy - the nacelles were metal, the props were metal, a lot of the underwing hatch covers were metal, and the wings were laced with thousands (I once knew the exact number ... ) of brass screws ("you screw what you glue"). I've also translated a NJ account or two in which a LW radar operator picks up contacts heading straight and level, which his pilot can't catch, commenting "they must have been Mosquitos".

Many a mossie was lost to predicted flak as well.

There were indeed lots of low-level intruder Mosquitos out over Europe by night, looking to pick off LW aircraft as they took off or landed. Luftwaffe researcher mate of mine says "Mosquitoschreck" was (Mosquito fear, roughly translated) a term genuinely used by LW night fighter pilots, though I've not come across it in any original documentation myself.

[BigPlay]

In answer to a few questions brought up. I believe that the 219's that were flying flew out of night fighter  base in Holland, I believe out of a base in the city Venlo. My father grew up in a town right next to venlo during WW2 and he does remember a lot of night activity. The Mossies were able to be picked up via the German radar. There is a German 262 night fighter pilot that lives in the LA area that I have spoken to through an interpater. He has 2 Mossie kills while flying said aircraft so Mossie's were able to be spotted on radar. The fog issue wouldn't be applicable to night fighter operations except takeoffs and landings. The alt that they hunted at was much higher than fog would be. I also believe that British bombing was done more on dead reckoning than via bombsite and via what they called the master of ceremonies which was a single bomber from the group that would bomb the target with incendiaries or by shooting off flares when over the target. Now how deep the 219's or other night fighters flew into coastal airspace I do not know.

[Karnak]

I concur with Scherf that the Mosquito being invisible or even having a reduced radar return is a myth.

As to the German night-fighters fearing Mosquito night-fighters, I have read of them flying low to avoid the Mosquitoes and running into hills, the wreckage being found and attributed to Mosquitoes, increasing the fear all on a night when no Allied night-fighters made any claims.


There are a few other tactical considerations that gave the British night-fighters an almost insurmountable advantage in combat with German night-fighters, even leaving aside the superior performance of the Mosquito.  1) The German night-fighter crew would be looking in a bomber stream for targets, most of which are mostly harmless Lancasters and Halifaxes with some uncatchable Mosquito bombers tossed in and a few sharks, i.e. Mosquito night-fighters all with no way to tell which is which whereas any hostile contact a British night-fighter found was going to be a German night-fighter.  2) Then there was the cat and mouse of electronic warfare.  The British had developed  a tail warning radar they code named "Monica" to give Lancs and Halibags a warning when a German night-fighter was following them.  The Germans quickly figured this out and used Monica as a homing device to lead them to British bombers.  The British eventually figured that out and only used it in bursts rather than leaving it on all the time.  However, Mosquito night-fighters with Monica would leave it on to lure German night-fighters on to them.  They would fly at a Lancaster's cruising speed until they detected a German night-fighter closing on them, then they would switch off Monica, go to full power and swing around coming up behind the contact and get it in their AI.X radar and proceed to try to kill the German.  That is one example of how they hunted German night-fighters.

[moot]

Very cool... Which book(s) would have AARs of these?

[BigPlay]

I concur with Scherf that the Mosquito being invisible or even having a reduced radar return is a myth.

As to the German night-fighters fearing Mosquito night-fighters, I have read of them flying low to avoid the Mosquitoes and running into hills, the wreckage being found and attributed to Mosquitoes, increasing the fear all on a night when no Allied night-fighters made any claims.


There are a few other tactical considerations that gave the British night-fighters an almost insurmountable advantage in combat with German night-fighters, even leaving aside the superior performance of the Mosquito.  1) The German night-fighter crew would be looking in a bomber stream for targets, most of which are mostly harmless Lancasters and Halifaxes with some uncatchable Mosquito bombers tossed in and a few sharks, i.e. Mosquito night-fighters all with no way to tell which is which whereas any hostile contact a British night-fighter found was going to be a German night-fighter.  2) Then there was the cat and mouse of electronic warfare.  The British had developed  a tail warning radar they code named "Monica" to give Lancs and Halibags a warning when a German night-fighter was following them.  The Germans quickly figured this out and used Monica as a homing device to lead them to British bombers.  The British eventually figured that out and only used it in bursts rather than leaving it on all the time.  However, Mosquito night-fighters with Monica would leave it on to lure German night-fighters on to them.  They would fly at a Lancaster's cruising speed until they detected a German night-fighter closing on them, then they would switch off Monica, go to full power and swing around coming up behind the contact and get it in their AI.X radar and proceed to try to kill the German.  That is one example of how they hunted German night-fighters.

Well since the Mossie isnt that manuverable I would think 110 night fighters would be able to out turn the Mossies. I doubt that the Ju88 crews could. But Hans Jabs did shot down I believe 16 Spitfires in the 110 .

[Karnak]

moot,

Various books on the Mossie.  I pulled that stuff out of my memory.

Well since the Mossie isnt that manuverable I would think 110 night fighters would be able to out turn the Mossies. I doubt that the Ju88 crews could. But Hans Jabs did shot down I believe 16 Spitfires in the 110 .

Fights at night are not turn fights.  They are ambushes.  The performance that I mentioned was speed and acceleration.  The Mosquito NF.Mk 30 could do 424mph at altitude.  I don't know of any German night-fighter than could match that until the Me262.

[AWwrgwy]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/jun43.html  shows no Mosquito Bombers lost in night rades in June, 1943.


wrongway

[morfiend]

Well since the Mossie isnt that manuverable I would think 110 night fighters would be able to out turn the Mossies.

What in the world are you talking about??

 while the 219 would be a nice addition,any new plane would be,I'd really like to see the 410.
The Mk 103 30 mm guns are reason enough to add this A/C.Myself I'm too scared to fly a plane with only 1 engine and having another  german twin would give me another option.

 Besides the {hornet} is a murderous plane!!

 we really need to see the Vne and CLmax to truely judge the performance of this A/C

[BigPlay]

I concur with Scherf that the Mosquito being invisible or even having a reduced radar return is a myth.

As to the German night-fighters fearing Mosquito night-fighters, I have read of them flying low to avoid the Mosquitoes and running into hills, the wreckage being found and attributed to Mosquitoes, increasing the fear all on a night when no Allied night-fighters made any claims.


There are a few other tactical considerations that gave the British night-fighters an almost insurmountable advantage in combat with German night-fighters, even leaving aside the superior performance of the Mosquito.  1) The German night-fighter crew would be looking in a bomber stream for targets, most of which are mostly harmless Lancasters and Halifaxes with some uncatchable Mosquito bombers tossed in and a few sharks, i.e. Mosquito night-fighters all with no way to tell which is which whereas any hostile contact a British night-fighter found was going to be a German night-fighter.  2) Then there was the cat and mouse of electronic warfare.  The British had developed  a tail warning radar they code named "Monica" to give Lancs and Halibags a warning when a German night-fighter was following them.  The Germans quickly figured this out and used Monica as a homing device to lead them to British bombers.  The British eventually figured that out and only used it in bursts rather than leaving it on all the time.  However, Mosquito night-fighters with Monica would leave it on to lure German night-fighters on to them.  They would fly at a Lancaster's cruising speed until they detected a German night-fighter closing on them, then they would switch off Monica, go to full power and swing around coming up behind the contact and get it in their AI.X radar and proceed to try to kill the German.  That is one example of how they hunted German night-fighters.

What in the world are you talking about??

 while the 219 would be a nice addition,any new plane would be,I'd really like to see the 410.
The Mk 103 30 mm guns are reason enough to add this A/C.Myself I'm too scared to fly a plane with only 1 engine and having another  german twin would give me another option.

 Besides the {hornet} is a murderous plane!!

 we really need to see the Vne and CLmax to truely judge the performance of this A/C


I was referring to the above post on how Mossies would lure German night fighters posing as bombers and then swinging in behind the following fighter and killing them. Maybe this did work but my bet is not often. Hans Jabs was a 110 pilot who flew the 110 at night. He was a 110 pilot that was able to shot down Spitfires and Hurricanes with that plane. I'm sure that if detected  a Mossie would have a very hard time being able to shot him down. So I guess what I'm saying is that Mossies that were detected would have trouble killing 110 night fighters. I'm sure most night kills were on unsuspecting foes on both sides

[Karnak]

I was referring to the above post on how Mossies would lure German night fighters posing as bombers and then swinging in behind the following fighter and killing them. Maybe this did work but my bet is not often. Hans Jabs was a 110 pilot who flew the 110 at night. He was a 110 pilot that was able to shot down Spitfires and Hurricanes with that plane. I'm sure that if detected  a Mossie would have a very hard time being able to shot him down. So I guess what I'm saying is that Mossies that were detected would have trouble killing 110 night fighters. I'm sure most night kills were on unsuspecting foes on both sides

Indeed.  And what makes you think he'd detect the Mosquito?  The Mossie sees the approaching German night-fighter using Monica, not visual identification.  It shuts off Monica, which means the German loses his homing beacon, still far out from having visual contact.  As the Mosquito accelerates and turns around the German continues trying to find the bomber that just turned off Monica.  Once back on its previous heading the Mosquito attempts to pick up the German night-fighter on its forward mounted AI.X radar and if successful then closes on the German until a visual ID can be made, the German still unaware of the Mosquito's presence as it hunts for the bomber.  Once the visual ID is made the Mosquito opens fire from short range with its quad of 20mm cannons without tracer in the belt.  If the Mosquito hits the German then the German is most likely shot down, and is in any case aware of the Mosquito.

If you like I can go through the kill list and tell you how many Bf110s the Mosquito shot down.  Also, the Bf110 isn't significantly more maneuverable in daylight fighting than the Mossie. FYI.

[BigPlay]

Indeed.  And what makes you think he'd detect the Mosquito?  The Mossie sees the approaching German night-fighter using Monica, not visual identification.  It shuts off Monica, which means the German loses his homing beacon, still far out from having visual contact.  As the Mosquito accelerates and turns around the German continues trying to find the bomber that just turned off Monica.  Once back on its previous heading the Mosquito attempts to pick up the German night-fighter on its forward mounted AI.X radar and if successful then closes on the German until a visual ID can be made, the German still unaware of the Mosquito's presence as it hunts for the bomber.  Once the visual ID is made the Mosquito opens fire from short range with its quad of 20mm cannons without tracer in the belt.  If the Mosquito hits the German then the German is most likely shot down, and is in any case aware of the Mosquito.

If you like I can go through the kill list and tell you how many Bf110s the Mosquito shot down.  Also, the Bf110 isn't significantly more maneuverable in daylight fighting than the Mossie. FYI.

I guess you regard German night fighter crews as stupid. German a/c radar systems were far more advanced  than Monica so I would think the advantage would be theirs, Heck P-51's had these sensors in thier tails late in the war as well, from my conversations with P-51 pilots was it was more of an anoyance then helpful  the range of said radar was to short to give the pilot enough notice that  there was a enemy plane behind them . It was basicly just turned off. Also German radars didn't need another radar to alert them of a bogie in the area so turning Monica off would in my estimation alert the German crew that something  was up. There were 3 guys in a 110 and besides the radar operator there were 2 pair of trained eyes scanning the skiesone scanning behind them. So getting behing a plane with a trained rear gunner looking for you would be a tall order.

[Karnak]

I guess you regard German night fighter crews as stupid. German a/c radar systems were far more advanced  than Monica so I would think the advantage would be theirs, Heck P-51's had these sensors in thier tails late in the war as well, from my conversations with P-51 pilots was it was more of an anoyance then helpful  the range of said radar was to short to give the pilot enough notice that  there was a enemy plane behind them . It was basicly just turned off. Also German radars didn't need another radar to alert them of a bogie in the area so turning Monica off would in my estimation alert the German crew that something  was up. There were 3 guys in a 110 and besides the radar operator there were 2 pair of trained eyes scanning the skiesone scanning behind them. So getting behing a plane with a trained rear gunner looking for you would be a tall order.

I am not talking about theories on what may or may not have happened.  I am telling you a tactic that was used successfully.  I think you grossly overestimate the capabilities of all WWII radar.  The Mosquito is question isn't relying on Monica to find the German, it is using it as a lure to bring the German to it.

I am not going to discuss this with you if you insist on holding fanboy images of how things were.

[thrila]

I never got round to uploading the images, i'll do it in the morning.

[Scherf]

Very cool... Which book(s) would have AARs of these?

There's some good ones in "The Mosquito Log" by Alexander McKee. You can also try "Moskitopanik" or "The Men Who Flew The Mosquito' by Martin Bowman, though I thiink he writes by stringing photocopies together.

I also have a Combat Report or two if you like, think I've got one from a "Mahmoud" sorite (string Luftie along, turn behind) though I'm not completely positive.

[Scherf]

Found the Mahmoud sortie one (though, from memory, the actual turn was called the Whiting Maneuver, think it's described in Most Secret War).


Paint and covering were burnt entirely off DZ757, and aircraft was later hit by flak, its port engine being put out, but was able to return to base with the aid of searchlights, which lit a path to base. The Mosquito had been previously damaged by flak, being hit in the starboard engine, and had been returning to base when Ladbrooke identified a contact to the rear. Three times Cybulski had chopped throttles and pulled up, causing the e/a to overshoot, and was on the e/a's tail when he found himself faced with the same maneuover, and was about to overshoot. "So I pulled right back and closed the throttles. Just as we were about to stall, I put the nose down. And there he was, sitting right out in front of us. I remember aiming our four cannon and the machine guns right at where his starboard wing tank should be and letting fly."
The e/a exploded, blinding Cybulski, and Ladbrooke took over the controls. The Mosquito was "completely enveloped in flames" and was dived at full throttle for 4,000 feet to extinguish the fire.Patrol time 20.12-00.53, time of claim 23.40.


They had taken off from Coleby Grange shortly after 8 p.m. to make a Mahmoud patrol between Zuyder Zee and Meppen. Except for some heavy flak, a concentration of searchlights and jamming of the A/1 • set, the 90-minutes patrol was uneventful. Homeward bound, Ladbrook got a radar contact, and despite jamming, held it until he and his pilot caught sight of a Do.217 flying east. As the enemy pilot went into a steep climb the night fighter closed rapidly to deliver a three-second burst. "The e.a. immediately exploded with a terrific flash and descended enveloped in flames. Burning petrol and oil flew back onto the Mosquito, scorching the fuselage from nose to tail, the port wing inboard of the engine, the bottom of the starboard wing, the port tailplane and the rudder, from which the fabric was tom away. Pieces of the e.a. struck the port oil cooler, resulting in the loss of oil and making it necessary to shut down the engine ... The pilot was completely blinded by the explosion and it was necessary for the navigator to take control of the aircraft for approximately five minutes until F/L Cybulski regained normal vision ... Course was set for base and after a remarkable 250-mile flight on one engine with aircraft seriously damaged".

DZ757, RA-Q of 410 Squadron, F/L Martin Czybulski and F/O H.H. Ladbrooke.

My source notes are Czybulslki's DFC citation and: Location and Mosquito registration from "de Havilland Mosquito". Squadron letter from an account by Cybulski in "Flying Under Fire, Volume 2", compiled by William J. Wheeler, in which Cybulski himself says this was a Mahmoud sortie and that the crew "found out later" that the e/a was an Me 410. Date from an original photo showing crew & damaged aircraft with hand-written commentary. Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 4 gives location as near Ijmuiden. Time details from http://bb.1asphost.com/lesbutler/tony/tonywood.htm . Long paragraph of details from http://www.rcaf.com/410squadron/410eng1-3.htm .


I don't have a positive ID for the German aircraft - will have to try to get Michael Balss' book on NJ losses.


There's also a good page on a rare daylight encounter with an He 219 at this page:

http://www.flensted.eu.com/g1944085.shtml

The Mosquito actually claimed another "LeO 45" - seems that one managed to get the ditch.