Author Topic: BLOODY FLAK FROM FLEET!!!  (Read 1153 times)

Offline Tac

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BLOODY FLAK FROM FLEET!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
Smut:

You telling me that flak in ww2 could follow a target in a 90 degree high speed dive PERFECTLY?

Gee, I really dont see how they couldve missed LARGE bomber FORMATIONS that flew straight. I mean, hey they fly relatively slow, in one vector and one altitude. Or maybe it was easier to hit a plane that was 1/3rd the size of a bomber, manouvering at high speeds?

Most kamikazes were either shot down by fighters or GUNFIRE (aka those XXmm guns and those pretty tracers that follow you when near fleet), a good number of them LIVED thru it and MISSED the target, and some did hit. FLAK did not smack down fighters by following them into the dive, they had preset barrage alts where the enemy planes would meet a "wall" of flak (if no friendly aircraft were around) and then the hail of lead from the fleet anti-aircraft guns. Watch some History Channel specials on the kamikazes.

"I've flown though it and lived, and I've flown through it and died. I live move than I die."

Same here.What we are trying to say here is that flak is waaay too accurate against a manouvering fighter. Look at the picture I posted in another thread on this. Then get airborne and watch the poor guy that is being flak'd as he dogfights at 15k over a fleet.Watch him for a while and you will see he WILL get killed in a minute or so. You will see the "perfect" tunnel of flak following the fighter's every move. THAT is the problem.

Oh, and also that flak picks on one person and ignores the others... kinda funny to see a fighter getting flakd while the torpedo bombers, lancasters and others that are attacking the fleet fly unmolested. Heehee.

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2001, 08:19:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
Smut:

You telling me that flak in ww2 could follow a target in a 90 degree high speed dive PERFECTLY?

Gee, I really dont see how they couldve missed LARGE bomber FORMATIONS that flew straight. I mean, hey they fly relatively slow, in one vector and one altitude. Or maybe it was easier to hit a plane that was 1/3rd the size of a bomber, manouvering at high speeds?

Most kamikazes were either shot down by fighters or GUNFIRE (aka those XXmm guns and those pretty tracers that follow you when near fleet), a good number of them LIVED thru it and MISSED the target, and some did hit. FLAK did not smack down fighters by following them into the dive, they had preset barrage alts where the enemy planes would meet a "wall" of flak (if no friendly aircraft were around) and then the hail of lead from the fleet anti-aircraft guns. Watch some History Channel specials on the kamikazes.

"I've flown though it and lived, and I've flown through it and died. I live move than I die."

Same here.What we are trying to say here is that flak is waaay too accurate against a manouvering fighter. Look at the picture I posted in another thread on this. Then get airborne and watch the poor guy that is being flak'd as he dogfights at 15k over a fleet.Watch him for a while and you will see he WILL get killed in a minute or so. You will see the "perfect" tunnel of flak following the fighter's every move. THAT is the problem.

Oh, and also that flak picks on one person and ignores the others... kinda funny to see a fighter getting flakd while the torpedo bombers, lancasters and others that are attacking the fleet fly unmolested. Heehee.

You got it. Not only 1/3 the size of a bomber (or less) and maneuvering but at over 3/4 of the flack guns maximum range. The flack shot down fighters and bombers that were trying to fly directly over or at the carrier. Both of these attack positions make it much easier to hit the attacking plane. You people that say the ack is fine because it historically shot down enemy planes attacking the CV are forgetting this fact. And as Smut says the ack was not really a direct fire weapon. Especially the big bore stuff. Give me a plane flying on a direct course at the CV to fire at anytime. You can't be doing barrel rolls and high G maneuvers in your TBF right up to the point of dropping your torpedo. Or how about jerking that Lancaster all over the sky until just moments before you release your bombs. For the ack to be adding close fire support to the friendly fighter 15k away in a dog fight is just flat ludicrous!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2001, 01:05:00 AM »
Make flaks also kill friendlies because this way its kinda rediculous to get killed by a 5 inch gun while in a tight turning fight with an enemy near his cv, while the bad guy has nothing to worry about.

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2001, 06:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Make flaks also kill friendlies because this way its kinda rediculous to get killed by a 5 inch gun while in a tight turning fight with an enemy near his cv, while the bad guy has nothing to worry about.

Yep a huge shrapnel hurling explosion is indiscriminate. As I and others said, those guns just weren't used to target an individual fighter and track it like a laser all over the sky. As I said above they fired at planes approaching the ship on a nice steady course. You can't be throwing your plane all over the sky right up to the second you release your bombs.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2001, 09:56:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Make flaks also kill friendlies because this way its kinda rediculous to get killed by a 5 inch gun while in a tight turning fight with an enemy near his cv, while the bad guy has nothing to worry about.

Yes with some type of killshooter so the gunner is also penalized for shooting down one of his own.

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Offline Smut

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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2001, 06:56:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
Smut:

You telling me that flak in ww2 could follow a target in a 90 degree high speed dive PERFECTLY?


Wait a second...you are diving straight down on the carrier and getting blown up?

Well duh.

A zero deflection shot with prox fused shells...lol...how does it get easier I wonder?

Clearly, this is not what you meant to say.

What *I* am saying is that late war (late 44 and onward) USN ship based AAA was very deadly. Not perfect, but very deadly nonetheless.

-Smut

Offline Smut

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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2001, 07:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jimdandy:
The fate of the Shoho at the Battle of Coral Sea. This is from a referance book of mine.

"The Japanese carrier Shoho was heading for Port Moresby on the 6th of May 1942

*SNIP*


How is this relevent?

Are you really trying to compare early war Japanese ship based AAA with USN late war, radar guided AAA?

Talk about apples and oranges...

-Smut

Offline Tac

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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2001, 07:10:00 PM »
No smut, I wasnt over carrier. I was almost half a sector away from it.

AAA in late war US navy ships didnt get deadlier. It got more numerous. A hell of a lot more numerous.

See it for yourself Smut. Try dogfighting while you get flak firing at you. its UNREAL. It will follow your loops, dives, twists and any crazy manouver you can try or whatever the con you're tailing tries. Its PERFECT in its ranging and altitude. I tried filming it but flak puffs dont show on films.

Or better yet, have one of your wingmen fly into the ack and manouver. You stay above and watch him. You will see the magic.


Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2001, 07:14:00 PM »
Smut.
Well if that's not a great example wow I'm so sorry. I'm upset as hell that didn't spin your crank. The fact is the ack wasn't as accurate at ANY time in the war as it is on here. Flush the example above. I and others have already made a case for the fact that the ack is far to accurate. If that example is your only line of defense your grasping.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-15-2001).]

Pepino

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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2001, 03:40:00 AM »
I think Grunherz is right. IMHO, Flak is OK now. You can avoid it pretty well, if you are far enough. Very hard when you are close to the ships. But definitely friendly fire has to be implemented, both human controlled weapons and for AI when fused projetciles used.

How about killshooter off for field gunners, and substracting perk points when killing a friendly?

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline Smut

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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2001, 07:31:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
AAA in late war US navy ships didnt get deadlier. It got more numerous. A hell of a lot more numerous.

Bzzzttt...Wrong, thanks for playing.

Ship based AAA got considerably more deadly as the war progressed. It got more accurate as radar technology improved (in 1941-42 few if any USN ship had radar guided AAA), as prox shells were perfected, and as weapons were improved. .50 MG's were replaced by 20mm mounts, and 40mm replaced the near worthless 1.1" quads. The 5" / 38 cal really came into it's own.

Did ships mount more guns? Sure...again, that also helped to make the AAA, on a whole, more deadly.

Why do you think they mounted all of those guns? Just to scare the hell out of the enemy?

I'm still not sure what you are squeaking about. Fleet AAA is not magic now. It may track you a bit too well, but it has been toned down so much that only a direct hit will kill you. I think the overall *effect* of the AAA is correct. Sometimes it will get you, and other times it won't. And our fleets probably only have 1/4 to 1/8 the number of AAA mounts they should have.

Are you squeaking about the effectiveness of the ack, or how it looks?

-Smut  

Offline Smut

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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2001, 07:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jimdandy:
Smut.
Well if that's not a great example wow I'm so sorry. I'm upset as hell that didn't spin your crank. The fact is the ack wasn't as accurate at ANY time in the war as it is on here. Flush the example above. I and others have already made a case for the fact that the ack is far to accurate. If that example is your only line of defense your grasping.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-15-2001).]

I'm sorry, I disagree with you. I do not think that currently the ack is too accurate.

You cited an example that did nothing to prove your point...sorry I burst your bubble.

-Smut

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2001, 08:25:00 AM »
     
Quote
Originally posted by Smut:
I'm sorry, I disagree with you. I do not think that currently the ack is too accurate.

You cited an example that did nothing to prove your point...sorry I burst your bubble.

-Smut

It has me all shaken up. I can see you think the ack is fine. I don't and so do some of the people above. Like I said I think you've latched onto my oh so inferior example because that's all you got to go on now. LOL Run with it. I'll be your scapegoat.  I bear on my head the sins of the children of Israel! Forgive me Father for I have been a bad example! But I have given Smut refuge in his time of need Lord. Will that be any consolation for my sin? Please Lord let there only be one set of foot prints in the sand where I carry Smut thru his time of need. Is there anyway I can make up for destroying the examples that have come before me. I'm at your mercy Lord.  

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]

Offline Lephturn

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BLOODY FLAK FROM FLEET!!!
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2001, 08:41:00 AM »
I only really have two issues with the flak.

1.  If it locks on to you, it stays locked on regardless.  Even when I go below 3k feet, it won't switch targets... it's on me until I am out of it's very long range.  I would think the flak gunners would switch to the closest targets, but maybe I'm wrong.  I think this can be exploited to a degree.  If I can get the flak locked on to me, I then just cruise around in range but at 2,800 feet.  My buddies should be relatively un-molested by flak at this point.

2.  I can fly perfectly straight and level and take no hits.  If I maneuver I tend to get killed.  Kinda strange.  Not a big deal, but not what I expect.  Am I wrong to expect it to work this way?

Now that said, I think there is an issue with how the flak works.  I think HT has changed some things on the host to make it playable for now, but it doesn't seem to be a permanent solution.  I'd bet that in a furuture patch or release, HT may be able to fix whatever is causing the functional issues.  For now I think the balance is not bad, and I find I can play around CV's now without too much of a problem.

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Offline Jimdandy

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BLOODY FLAK FROM FLEET!!!
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
Lephturn, I agree. It has been made more playable. I've observed the same things. I know that no matter what part of the war you want to talk about the aircraft of the CV are it's prime defense. The flack is a last ditch effort. I think when further changes come to the ack I would like it to reflect that.