Author Topic: Disable F3 view  (Read 4265 times)

Offline Rebel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 02:15:55 PM »

Times I use F3:
A20= to take a quick look around to spot GV's or incoming enemy AC....for SA so to speak.  I don't bomb from that position. and to see how pretty that bird is!
IL2= same thing as A20  (don't think it's as pretty though)
Heavies=  SA to find bad guys.  You'll 99.9% of the time never find my bombers in enemy territory below 10k.  If I am lower I am on some idiots NOE mission that I didn't know was going to be NOE.

The IL2 is the main case of those who abuse this to the point of absurdity.  They're used as fighter platforms, using VERY powerful gun packages in a point defense role.  A role in which they NEVER served- they had tail gunners for a damned reason. 


I'd like to make it case by case, but the subjectiveness would prove it's undoing.

To stick to a principle, I'll stick with my original case.  4 engine heavies have it, everything else you're on your own. 



"You rebel scum"

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 07:35:54 AM »
Rebel are you telling me that a fighter has problem getting behind an iL2 and shooting it down?

How is that view helping him? He can't defend himself in it. Its not as accurate for targeting ground vehicles as the cockpit view.
(And if you argue this point I'll expect film to prove it)

So what is the problem? All you have to do is NOT let him get on your 6.
They don't climb, they turn like a pregnant cow.

Put yourself in the iL2's shoes, you up to help repulse a GV attack an get buzzed by a bunch of fighters.
You saying you wouldn't take any shot you could take in that situation?

Granted, F3 view gives him better SA, lets him see who's coming in on his 6 and who's not a threat.
But the plane has so many faults compared to any fighter that its truly no contest.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 07:50:07 AM »
The IL2 is the main case of those who abuse this to the point of absurdity.  They're used as fighter platforms, using VERY powerful gun packages in a point defense role.  A role in which they NEVER served- they had tail gunners for a damned reason. 

They way a plane (in this case the Il2) is used is a result of the tactial circumstances. Which in our MA's are completely different from real world: Planes are free, pilots aren't valuable at all, you don't die, when you get shot down you can immediately spawn again and usually ot'S the fighter hangars that go down, not the BH.
So it's not the fine performance of the Il-2 that's the reason for people using it as a fighter, but it's just available when true fighters disabled.

And in a fighter role - it sucks, but that was already pointed out by Ghost. All the fighters I see getting shot down by Il-2s in this game completely messed it up first. Me included.

BTW, last tour the Il-2 had a k/d of 0.74 vs all planes (including low level buffs!). That's not very impressive ;)





Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 07:54:29 AM »
The IL2 is the main case of those who abuse this to the point of absurdity.  They're used as fighter platforms, using VERY powerful gun packages in a point defense role.  A role in which they NEVER served- they had tail gunners for a damned reason. 


I'd like to make it case by case, but the subjectiveness would prove it's undoing.

To stick to a principle, I'll stick with my original case.  4 engine heavies have it, everything else you're on your own. 





Yes they did......

It was the punitive assignment, punishment duty, or s%*t burning detail, if you prefer.

It was the job you DIDN'T want.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 08:21:14 AM »
I'd like to humbly request that F3 view be disabled for all aircraft in the main arenas.  The gunner positions are sufficient for representing the actual field of view available to an aircrew, so they are enough.

Thank you.

Anax: Sorry, no. F3 in planes with at least a pilot and a gunner somewhat compensates for all the extra eyes that would be available, and thus is not terribly unrealistic. The only thing I don't understand is why the 110 is the only plane in the game with a rear gunner that can't use F3 view.

There are some...absurdities...with buffs in this game perhaps, but F3 view is not one of them.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 08:34:32 AM »
Even pressing all gunner position keys at light speed, you're still only seeing one pair of eyes at a time. That's less than they had.
Pressing the trigger should toggle back to F1 view, though.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Rebel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 09:01:38 AM »
Ghost and Lusche together- here we go :)

IL2's are certainly capable of defendng themselves, but not in a conventional sense.  You see them upping from capped bases w/o fighter hangars all the time, utilizing the F3 view to time wierd neg-G maneuvers, and maneuver as though they could look through the airframe itself.

The point of the F3 view is to enhance SA, and is generally defendable as you have a gunner looking behind you, thus you should have some kind of multiplier as saying something to the tune of "well, Boris is back there, and he's telling me we have 3 guys blah blah blah".  What Boris *couldn't* do was turn the IL2 into Wonder Woman's airplane, allowing the pilot to look straight through it.

Let's be practical here.  Everybody knows that even the heaviest of AH a/c are capable of some pretty astounding feats not possible in real life.  Snap rolling bostons, and outside looping IL2's are just 2 examples of this.

Certainly, the IL2 isn't a zero or a spitfire, damned far from it.  But, if you can look through your airframe and as a result of that, maneuver to gain a snapshot (or even a HO attempt) with 23mm or 37mm fire,  you have an advantage, and more importantly an ability that can be abused to more or less delay the inevitable.

The desperation of IL2's being caught by 109's as they were fighting off GV's is just that- it's a desperate situation, IL2 pilots often fought for their lives.  With those 23mm's, and the extensive armor protection, I myself would move for a HO shot and DARE that 109 to merge. 

As Lusche says, it's the fact that the IL2's are being used as fighters that's a big part of the issue, but it's more a sign of MA play, then abuse of the F3 view.

**Edit**- I will admit, shooting down IL2's isn't exactly hard or rocket science.  But they shouldn't be doing what they're doing at all.  This isn't a rivet-counting grognard realism stick, this is a legitimate gameplay concern.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 09:15:01 AM by Rebel »
"You rebel scum"

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 09:10:19 AM »
What if.... instead of the standard rear-view on aircraft like the Il-2, A-20, SBD, etc., looking to your 6 o'clock gave you the gunner's view, but with the ability to still control the aircraft?  I can already think of a super-easy way to code this:  allow the point-of-view to move extra far to the rear, just as we adjust our views now.  It would give the pilot the SA he should have with a gunner's view, but not the God's eye view of F3.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2009, 09:14:59 AM »
You're still restricted to a small fraction of the SA that a full bomber crew had.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Rebel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 09:16:52 AM »
You're still restricted to a small fraction of the SA that a full bomber crew had.

Remember that they didn't have a telepathic link, as well.  It wasn't exactly the hive-mind flying the plane ;)
"You rebel scum"

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 09:22:52 AM »
Were they gagged? Was there no way for information to trickle thru across the crew?
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 09:28:31 AM »
I can't remember which plane it was (SBD or TBM), but the rear gunner only had radio comms.  They were in a separate compartment from the rest of the crew, physically.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2009, 09:28:52 AM »
Were they gagged? Was there no way for information to trickle thru across the crew?

Hey...thats what we'll go with. When in pilot position and a bandit gets within 400 of your six, you'll hear a sound effect of the tail-gunner shouting "Oh *&^%$#@$#%&**%^#@#!!!!"
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Rebel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2009, 09:33:39 AM »
Were they gagged? Was there no way for information to trickle thru across the crew?

We're getting rather sidetracked here.  No they weren't gagged, yes, there were radios, but think about this:

You have say an IL2 (or a Pe2, if ya wanna get creative), tooling along at a nice leisurly 160 mph, at 5,000 feet, looking for ground targets around a bridge or something.

Out of the clouds comes an FW190, doing well over 350mph.  He's 1000 yards astern.  

Call it a 200 mph closure rate, and he's 1000 yards behind and above, in a diving attack.  

Now how quickly can that tail gunner forward that information, and how accurate will it be?  Chances are he'll shout something like "Jeus Christ, break right NOW!" and try his best to shoot the badguy with his machine gun.  

In AH, the IL2 can time the break perfectly, and even force an overshoot, and throw the plane into a maneuver that can gain angles on the badguy.
"You rebel scum"

Offline SmokinLoon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6168
Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2009, 09:39:06 AM »
4 engines- keep it, but anything 2 engine or single, take it away.  Being abused to the point of arcadey lameness.

Ding ding.

There is no reason the IL-2 needs to have the F3 view.  It is being abused and it allows the IL-2 to be that much more effective.  If the IL-2 is able to have it, then why not the Hurricane IID? 
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.