Disable F3 view

[stodd]

Negative! Bombers of all types need all the help they can get. I can already shoot down all three bombers of even the best gunner without taking a single hit and its not hard just takes a little patience.

[Anaxogoras]

I asked for F3 view to be removed in full understanding of all the arguments for its availability.  If someone disagrees with you, it's not always the result of a character flaw.

[AWwrgwy]

For the record, I've *never* been shot down by an Il-2.  I have *no* problem shooting down IL-2's.  

One cannot be shot down by what one never engages.  You've shot down a total of three (3) IL-2s in the last year.  3-0 is pretty good.   



wrongway

[Rebel]

Hmm the first post is about how he got killed by an IL2 because he didn't know how to fight it. It may not say it but that's what it was about no doubt about it.

Really? Spitfires upped out of fields being vulching by P38s in the BoB? I must have missed that part.
Lie.
How do you know that? When I find myself in a dogfight in the Il2 I use the F3 mode only when looking for the enemy but when I get into the dogfight I stay in the canopy so I can use the gunsight to shoot him.
The F3 mode isn't going to change no matter how hard you guys cry about it. Its there to simulate having a whole crew, and until my rear gunner can track, shoot at, and call out enemy planes you're going to have to deal with it. So grab a tissue and dry those tears and play the game how it is or go play IL2. You can make your own server where external views are all disabled and the Il2s with fly level and let them shoot you down.

You're just being inflammatory at this point.   

Nobody is that dense. 

Surmoviks are NOT spitfires, and should NOT be flown as such- FIN.

One cannot be shot down by what one never engages.  You've shot down a total of three (3) IL-2s in the last year.  3-0 is pretty good.   
wrongway

Heh.  Good point.  Any field capture I have been involved in (admiteddly fewer then most, as is shown by my limited online time) that has resulted in IL2's upping like the Spits of yore, I just shake my head, wheel my P47 around and back to where I came from.    The few kills I *do* have of IL2's came from them doing, you know, Sturmovik stuff- like killing my buddies in tanks. 

[BnZs]

Anax, all of the possible valid reasons you could want for removing F3 view (buffs are death stars, some people use stick-stirry extreme negative G guns defense in Il2s) could be better addressed by examining the buff gunnery setup and the red-out modeling. F3 view IMO is perfectly fair in gunned planes, the only thing I question is why the 110 can not use it. Its simply not logically consistent for it to not be able to.

[SmokinLoon]

One cannot be shot down by what one never engages.  You've shot down a total of three (3) IL-2s in the last year.  3-0 is pretty good.   



wrongway

LOL!!!  I love it when someone claims greatness and they are quickly and easily put in their place.  

The thing with the IL-2 and the F3 view is as much of a defensive issue as it is an offensive issue, imo.  Since the IL-2 is so well armored it is tough to be able to see as well say vs a Hurricane IID performing the same mission.  The F3 mode isnt going to help the IL-2 in defensive mode as well as it does in offensive mode, it is much easier to keep the bead on the gv for the 2nd or 3rd pass while in F3 view AND it is MUCH easier to find the gv to begin with while in F3 mode.

[SmokinLoon]

Um yes this thead and the origanal post was about how people don't know how to attack a plane and get owned by it when they blow their pass. Those who want them disabled pretty much are "whining cry babies who suck" and disabling the F3 wont wont fix you getting shot down by Il2s because last time I looked the big guns fire forward where theres a big windshield they has a great view of exploding tards.

Disagree all you want, but state facts and reasons and back it up.  You dont have to be so rude and crude.  Calling someone a cry baby or a whiner because they are looking for HTC to back up their "realism" claim is hardly whining.  You are reading far too deep in to why some of us believe the F3 view in the IL-2 (and other single engine aricraft) should be disabled.   

[BnZs]

Sturmoviks are NOT spitfires, and should NOT be flown as such- FIN.
 

They often did have to defend themselves by maneuvering on the Eastern front...if something is modeled wrong that lets them maneuver more effectively than they should, fix THAT.

[BnZs]

it is much easier to keep the bead on the gv for the 2nd or 3rd pass while in F3 view AND it is MUCH easier to find the gv to begin with while in F3 mode.

Heres another example...you might have a valid argument if you said the new Il2's guns are perhaps a little deadly against tanks for an unperked vehicle. You might even have an argument if you said something ought to be done with the icons to make GVs harder to spot, although I would disagree vehemently for reasons of logical consistency. But handi-capping the views of planes that historically had multiple sets of eyes looking in multiple directions ain't a fair answer, and it ain't an effective answer.

[SmokinLoon]

I say just disable it for single-engined planes.

So you're vouching that unless a bomber has multiple turrets and/or gun points AND 2 engines or more, it shouldnt have F3 view?

Hmm...  I was going to lean in the direction of "F3 view for level bombers only".

I'm now starting to narrow my opinion of what planes should have F3 view more and more.  I'm beginning to think that only the aircraft with 3 or more turrets and/or defensive gun points, regardless of the number of engines, should be able to afforded the F3 view.  Here is why:

What gives a plane the ability to look in all directions in almost a simultaneous fashion?  Multiple set of eyes in multiple defensive positions and levels on an aircraft.  An IL-2, B5N, Bf110, A20 (the A20 is debatable since it was reported to have a low-rear gun point but yet it isnt modeled in AH2), SBD, D3A, Stuka, Boston, B25C, etc, and the rest of the aircraft with only a single rear gunner are NOT going to see below them (unless the planes banks) or in all directions at once like the F3 mode provides.  From the pilots position and from the rear gunner position and the view that those 2 positions afford should be all that those aircraft are allowed, imo.  For a bomber like the B17, B24, Lancaster, B26, etc, when an enemy aircraft approaches at minimum there are at least 2 sets of eyes from any level and sometimes 3 sets.

If the "no F3 view for single engine planes" view is taken, then the TBM is left behind and it had a high and low rear gunner.

My thoughts.                    

[SmokinLoon]

Heres another example...you might have a valid argument if you said the new Il2's guns are perhaps a little deadly against tanks for an unperked vehicle. You might even have an argument if you said something ought to be done with the icons to make GVs harder to spot, although I would disagree vehemently for reasons of logical consistency. But handi-capping the views of planes that historically had multiple sets of eyes looking in multiple directions ain't a fair answer, and it ain't an effective answer.

Good point, but one has to wonder just how effective the rear gunner was in an IL-2 in getting the pilot vectored onto a target when the rear gunner had a worse view of the killing field (vs gv's) than the pilot did, especially since there was no low rear view.  The rear gunner in an IL-2 couldnt even stick his head out, at least according to the AH2 model, and take a look directly down and to the side.  I'm not doubting that the rear gunner in an IL-2 had some usefulness in assessing damage, assessing AA fire, defense vs incoming enemy aircraft, etc, but spotting enemy gv's that the pilot already didnt see is debatable.

On the issue of the IL-2 37mm guns or gv icons, I dont have an issue with either.  I cant really comment on the historical effectiveness of the IL-2's 37mm guns vs enemy tanks, I'll leave that for the stat pullers and those who are more versed in that aspect of the war (maybe the IL-2/37mm did have a extremely high success rate vs German armor???).  As for the icon range, I wouldnt wimper a bit if the icon range for enemy gv's were reduced to 1.0, but the fact remains that planes with the F3 view can spot enemy gv's easier/quicker vs those without and when and IL-2 can fly directly over a gv that it may not otherwise see but only due to the F3 view that affords it a direct low view that it would otherwise not have both in the real deal and in the F3 mode... it is being given an advantage that it wouldnt nornally have.

btw... I'll be the first to step up and say that the "auto-auto pilot" when going into the rear gunner mode would need to be adjusted or removed if these changes are made.  While in a sharp turn in a Boston, to hop from the pilot to the rear gunner in hopes to get a shot off on the pursuing plane only to have it level off and hide the enemy plane behind the tail is... annoying.  Either have it adjusted so the recovery time to level flight is greatly lengthened or disable it altogether.               

[Beefcake]

Phew! Buff pilots can never catch a break. Ok so you want to remove my F3 view? No problem. I want Auto-Gunners to counter the loss of my SA, and I KNOW you'll love that.

Now lets clear up some myths. Gunning from F3 view. If you can gun from F3 view and actually hit things on a regular basis, then you are the uber gunner. And don't say you center the mouse cursor on the screen and then hit F3 as the whole plane would be in your way when you fired, and moving the view around would throw the arc off.
There are many times, even with F3 view, that I get caught off guard in buffs simply because I'm focusing on to much stuff like whats my speed, whats my heading, am I high enough to clear the ack, etc etc etc. Most of our bombers have crews of 3+ men and at least one of them is looking to the rear, so at the least bombers have a 360° field of view on the horizon and a 90° view above them.
Now about F3 view giving IL-2s an unfair advantage vs GVs. If you're a true GV hunter you don't use F3 view to find your targets, you use sound. I fly over an area where I suspect GVs might be approaching from and kill my engine. If I hear something I check it out, if there is no friendly icon where I hear the sound then I know an enemy GV is there and to begin hunting.  Now F3 view does help me zone in on the GV, but most of the time I already know it's there by the sound, or because the guy starts shooting at me from 6k out.

Removing F3 view from buffs would only serve to make them even weaker than they are now. If you're dying to IL-2's or buffs in general then it's not a problem with the bombers, its a problem with your tactics. Bombers can only fly defensively. Almost every fighter in AH can catch our prop driven buffs, even the full power B17's flying at 25k. This means that buff pilots are at the mercy of fighters and have to rely on them making mistakes, one of which is NOT taking the time to setup for an attack and coming in dead six. I get the idea from suggestions like this that alot of pilots are just to lazy to do anything and just want silver platter kills.

Sorry for the rambling rant...I just had to vent.

[Widewing]

btw... I'll be the first to step up and say that the "auto-auto pilot" when going into the rear gunner mode would need to be adjusted or removed if these changes are made.  While in a sharp turn in a Boston, to hop from the pilot to the rear gunner in hopes to get a shot off on the pursuing plane only to have it level off and hide the enemy plane behind the tail is... annoying.  Either have it adjusted so the recovery time to level flight is greatly lengthened or disable it altogether.               

Why man the rear guns in a Boston? That thing will hold it's own with fighters. Trim out the high-speed control heaviness and you can brawl with almost anything. Inasmuch as the average MA pilot isn't very good 1v1, a good stick in a Boston will tear up most MA adversaries.

Batfink and I flew a bunch of duels, Boston vs Mossie. Mossie is faster, accelerates and climbs better (until WEP is gone), but the Boston turns considerably better and holds E better in hard maneuvering. It's a great match up. Don't man the rear pop guns, break into the enemy. Force a merge and suck him into a maneuver fight. Use its E retention, use flaps carefully. Fight in the vertical if you have the speed going in. Even if you're flying a formation of Bostons, maneuver fight the beastie. You'll lose the drones anyway.


My regards,

Widewing

[SmokinLoon]

Phew! Buff pilots can never catch a break. Ok so you want to remove my F3 view? No problem. I want Auto-Gunners to counter the loss of my SA, and I KNOW you'll love that.

Now lets clear up some myths. Gunning from F3 view. If you can gun from F3 view and actually hit things on a regular basis, then you are the uber gunner. And don't say you center the mouse cursor on the screen and then hit F3 as the whole plane would be in your way when you fired, and moving the view around would throw the arc off.
There are many times, even with F3 view, that I get caught off guard in buffs simply because I'm focusing on to much stuff like whats my speed, whats my heading, am I high enough to clear the ack, etc etc etc. Most of our bombers have crews of 3+ men and at least one of them is looking to the rear, so at the least bombers have a 360° field of view on the horizon and a 90° view above them.
Now about F3 view giving IL-2s an unfair advantage vs GVs. If you're a true GV hunter you don't use F3 view to find your targets, you use sound. I fly over an area where I suspect GVs might be approaching from and kill my engine. If I hear something I check it out, if there is no friendly icon where I hear the sound then I know an enemy GV is there and to begin hunting.  Now F3 view does help me zone in on the GV, but most of the time I already know it's there by the sound, or because the guy starts shooting at me from 6k out.

Removing F3 view from buffs would only serve to make them even weaker than they are now. If you're dying to IL-2's or buffs in general then it's not a problem with the bombers, its a problem with your tactics. Bombers can only fly defensively. Almost every fighter in AH can catch our prop driven buffs, even the full power B17's flying at 25k. This means that buff pilots are at the mercy of fighters and have to rely on them making mistakes, one of which is NOT taking the time to setup for an attack and coming in dead six. I get the idea from suggestions like this that alot of pilots are just to lazy to do anything and just want silver platter kills.

Sorry for the rambling rant...I just had to vent.

You're trying to vouch to let the IL-2 be able to keep it's F3 view because a "true gv hunter will use SOUND"???  I just want to make sure of what you're saying... SOUND?  The Soviet IL-2 pilots in WWII shut their engines off and listened for German armor while flying over top?  Is that a true GV hunter?  Someone else help confirm that I am interpreting what he said correctly... seriously.   

Again... the point is the IL-2 didnt have the 360d view like those aircraft with the multi turreted aircraft.  The IL-2 should have 2 views: pilot and rear gunner.  Someone explain how the IL-2, 110, stuka, etc should be able to see beneath it regardless of the angle of attack/flight.   

Regarding the Boston vs fighters: Oh, believe me I do my best to get turned around in the Boston and maneuver vs fighters.  I've caught more than one fighter in a turn.  The quad .303 British MG's in the nose dont do too bad if you can keep them on target long enough.  But still, if I am in a flight of Bostons I will first try and out run those fighters if conditions permit (the Bostons do roughly 320mph at 12k alt), but if they catch me I'll hop into the far Boston from where the enemy is approaching from and usually can get some pings on him to make him think twice about an easy kill.  Once he is upon me I'll jink and swap planes in the rear gunner and usually get some dmg delivered before he takes out 1 or both of my drones, THEN it is 1v1 time in a maneuvering Boston.     

[Larry]

Disagree all you want, but state facts and reasons and back it up.  You dont have to be so rude and crude.  Calling someone a cry baby or a whiner because they are looking for HTC to back up their "realism" claim is hardly whining.  You are reading far too deep in to why some of us believe the F3 view in the IL-2 (and other single engine aricraft) should be disabled.   

Because you got shot down by one, or couldn't shoot one down because your incompetence and know you want something changed because you want everyone to play your way. HTC (HT, Skuzzy, pyro) has said why bombers and attack aircraft have external views and its not anyone elses fault if your to slow or dense to do a search and read why. So keep crying and whining here because it isn't going to change anything.