Flat Scissors

[CAP1]

hey all, got a question about flat scissors.

when i get into a position that i feel i need to do this in the ma's, i seem to always grab a bit of alt as i transition from one direction to the other, especially in the 38g. i went offline, and have been practicing this offline, and noted that even when i push the stick to a more neutral position as i roll to change directions, i still gain alt. this is also what seems to get me kilt most of the time.
 i've gone to pushing the stick pretty far foward  as i roll to transition, and this seems to keep me from gaining any alt.

 my question.....is this right? what do you guys do? as far as stick inputs(fugitive?) for this maneuver?
 fighting a spit9 offline, i could make him go out front if i did this, but without it, he stayed right on my tail.


thanks!

[fudgums]

I usually always do...in the end it will help you sometimes. Some people like to chop throttle when chasing a flat scissors. So changing your alt...you can really mess with em.

[Vudak]

If you roll in the counter-intuitive direction to begin your reversal (If you are turning right, and want to reverse to the left, roll to the right, going upside down on the way to your left turn), you'll get a gravity assist in your roll, and have the opposite problem of gaining altitude...

I'm not sure if that's very clear...  Do you follow?

[CAP1]

I usually always do...in the end it will help you sometimes. Some people like to chop throttle when chasing a flat scissors. So changing your alt...you can really mess with em.

well, when i gain alt, i normally look back and they look like they're just floating there. my pushing the stick foward as i change directions isn't intended to drop alt, but only to keep me from going up.

 it seems like a fairly simple maneuver, but yet i feel as if i'm doing it wrong.

[CAP1]

If you roll in the counter-intuitive direction to begin your reversal (If you are turning right, and want to reverse to the left, roll to the right, going upside down on the way to your left turn), you'll get a gravity assist in your roll, and have the opposite problem of gaining altitude...

I'm not sure if that's very clear...  Do you follow?

ya, i think i do.

if someone behind me, they expect to see me roll right to change from left bank to right bank. what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?

[Vudak]

ya, i think i do.

if someone behind me, they expect to see me roll right to change from left bank to right bank. what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?

Yes, pretty much.  It's counter-intuitive and a good way to auger, but can get you reversed a bit quicker, possibly confuse your opponent, and at the very least solve your altitude-gaining problem.

[ImADot]

what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?

Yup.  While turning left, full left aileron and roll upside-down (canopy to the ground) and keep rolling until you're now in a right-hand turn.  Some guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation.  When you keep rolling until you're breaking right, you can really gain some angles advantage while they scramble to compensate for their bad anticipation.

I change it up and do two or three "normal" scissors reversals, then throw in the "inverted" reversal once-in-while.  Always keep them guessing.  Kicking the rudder in the direction of the roll really helps to get you there faster - especially useful during the non-inverted maneuver to keep you from getting the nose up and gaining alt.

[Anaxogoras]

Add full rudder in the direction of your turn and you won't have this problem.  Do you have pedals?  I can't believe I ever flew without them.

[CAP1]

Add full rudder in the direction of your turn and you won't have this problem.  Do you have pedals?  I can't believe I ever flew without them.

i do. i have all ch stuff. i actually hooked up my old sidewinder twisty stick,....and cannot for hte life of me figure out how i flew with it.


i do add rudder in the direction of my turns, but i don;t go full...in a 38 at low speed, i've planted myself doing that. 

[Steve]

Yup.  While turning left, full left aileron and roll upside-down (canopy to the ground) and keep rolling until you're now in a right-hand turn.  Some guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation.  When you keep rolling until you're breaking right, you can really gain some angles advantage while they scramble to compensate for their bad anticipation.

I change it up and do two or three "normal" scissors reversals, then throw in the "inverted" reversal once-in-while.  Always keep them guessing.  Kicking the rudder in the direction of the roll really helps to get you there faster - especially useful during the non-inverted maneuver to keep you from getting the nose up and gaining alt.

This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity.  As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react.  I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower.   

[pervert]

Flat scissors are rarely 'purely' flat as in the diagrams if they were you'd be conceding at least 3 or more big profile passing shots you will gain/loss alt staying out of guns on the passover. I always view flat scissors as going the way my opponent isn't while going slower than them and staying out of guns which is not possible if I went flat.

This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity.  As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react.  I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower.  

The secret to any successful overshoot is to let your opponent see as little of the start of it as possible. In the situation above you would want to set the maneuver up by pulling the opponent into a near blackout turn while cutting throttle progressively then roll left and under into the blind spot of the left wing/cockpit of your opponents plane you should watch your opponent's speed and roll state to adjust throttle and the timing of your next scissor.
Starting maneuvers right in front of your opponent only invites them to mimic your manuveour especially if they are dead on your 6.

[Anaxogoras]

i do add rudder in the direction of my turns, but i don;t go full...in a 38 at low speed, i've planted myself doing that. 

Oh, you didn't mention that this is when you're low and slow.  For that matter, I'm not sure a flat scissors is your best option if you're low and slow in a 38 (but what do I know).  I'd prefer to have more space between myself and the ground to make my flat scissor not so completely flat; I've had the best results when I execute a flat scissors a bit nose-down and throw in varying degrees of pitch.

For one thing, the 38 (even the L) does not roll well at low speed, but its low speed control seems like it could give you a chance against an aircraft that doesn't do so well at <150mph, e.g. Spitfire XVI.  I've been flying the 38 a bit and I'll have more to talk about next month when it's one of our squad rides.

[CAP1]

Oh, you didn't mention that this is when you're low and slow.  For that matter, I'm not sure a flat scissors is your best option if you're low and slow in a 38 (but what do I know).  I'd prefer to have more space between myself and the ground to make my flat scissor not so completely flat; I've had the best results when I execute a flat scissors a bit nose-down and throw in varying degrees of pitch.

For one thing, the 38 (even the L) does not roll well at low speed, but its low speed control seems like it could give you a chance against an aircraft that doesn't do so well at <150mph, e.g. Spitfire XVI.  I've been flying the 38 a bit and I'll have more to talk about next month when it's one of our squad rides.

ya, i should've mentioned that...........even at 2 or 3k, i've gotten into a weird stall, that i used the ground to help me recover. 

 i understand there needs to be some verticle in it too, but it just seems that if i go up even a little, that is when i lose fairly important parts.

 i think i'm gonna hit the TA to practice this some more. i've just been trying to not log into the online arenas till i get my new machine....which should be to me next week sometime.

thanks!

[Anaxogoras]

I hear ya.  I've entered some nasty spins in the 38.  You get slow with flaps out, AoA gets too high, and you're spinning before you realize you did anything wrong.  It gives me a lot of respect for people who can fly it well.

[Vudak]

This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity.  As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react.  I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower.   

Well let's be honest here, Steve...  He's talking about doing a flat scissors in a P-38.  Either way he tries it, you're drooling