Author Topic: Flight model abuse / grievance  (Read 7346 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 12:16:49 PM »
With due respect to Widewing, I challenge any of you to do much better than Krusty did at 32k ft.  Flying at that altitude at 180mph ias is very challenging in a plane with terrible lateral/longitudinal stability.

I do it all the time because I chase bombers until they drop alt to land when I have the fuel for that. Its surprising how many bombers will use their last bit of fuel to climb to 32k but then have to glide home. :D
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2009, 01:45:31 PM »
Its just a game guys......

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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2009, 03:51:55 PM »
Its just a game guys......

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Offline moot

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2009, 03:53:31 PM »
What Lusche said.  It's been true for ten years now.  btw.. Does HTC do something special on their 10th year first point release day?
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Offline Steve

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2009, 04:03:19 PM »
I think bomber formations should show up on dar differently than simple fighter blips.
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Offline humble

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2009, 04:21:48 PM »
Actually I dont think the problem is B-17s at 32k....its the bombing system that allows them to hit anything from that high.

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Offline Widewing

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2009, 06:06:37 PM »
With due respect to Widewing, I challenge any of you to do much better than Krusty did at 32k ft.  Flying at that altitude at 180mph ias is very challenging in a plane with terrible lateral/longitudinal stability.

One of my Trainer gigs is to schedule a dueling session from a 30k field in the TA. So yeah, I'm quite comfortable flying and maneuvering at 30,000 feet.

The problem most have with high altitude is that they don't understand how different their aircraft performs up high. To overtake bombers flying that high, you need about 20 minutes to climb up there. Then, you have to build up your airspeed enough to be able to maneuver. Remember, it's your indicated air speed that matters. For many aircraft at 30k, the difference between stall speed and max speed is a very narrow range in IAS.

If you try to climb up behind a formation of bombers, you will be hanging there; a sitting duck for the tail guns. You won't have enough speed to maneuver and any abrupt stick movement can result in a stall. That's why you have to build your air speed and get out ahead of the bombers. Once you accomplish this, you can turn in and attack from a front quarter. You make one pass, fly perpendicular to the formation until about 3k distant. You then turn onto the bomber's heading and get out ahead again. Repeat this as required until ammo or fuel is exhausted, or the bombers are down.

The bombers that Krusty was chasing were climbing at about 250 feet/minute. Their speed was around 190 mph TAS. Had he applied what I illustrated above, he would have easily gained position to attack. The Ta 152 climbs 3 to 4 times faster than B-17s at those altitudes. The issue is time. You have to be willing to take the time. A Ta 152 has excellent endurance, so fuel should not be an issue. Time is what the bomber pilot expended to get to altitude. He understood that high altitude is the best refuge. He's using good tactical judgment. His bombers are vulnerable at lower altitudes. He's not gaming the game or abusing the flight model.

The argument some are using stating that the bombers are flying at full power 100% of the time is a strawman. Those fighters chasing him are flying at full throttle 100% of the time as well. Pot meet kettle.


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Offline Stoney

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2009, 06:08:49 PM »
In the ETO, they still rarely went above 23k, and even more rare were missions above 27k.  Look up the stats.  I cant comment on the RAF, I dont have the stats on their bombing mission at hand like I do the USAAF.

What "stats" do you have?  To say they "rarely" went above 23,000 feet is not accurate.  Look at the mission reports here:  www.398th.org

Almost all of the missions described are above 23,000 feet.  There are quite a few missions that dropped from 28,000 feet.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 06:10:26 PM by Stoney »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2009, 06:10:23 PM »
WW is correct.   Krusty saw the Buffs and rushed the attack. 
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2009, 06:11:59 PM »
Actually I dont think the problem is B-17s at 32k....its the bombing system that allows them to hit anything from that high.

Well, in real life the Norden bombsight was supposed to be accurate enough from 30,000ft.


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Offline Lye-El

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 06:25:16 PM »
Actually I dont think the problem is B-17s at 32k....its the bombing system that allows them to hit anything from that high.

It is their JDAMS   :D  The AH bomber accuracy must be approaching what our guys are dropping NOW! When they were dropping hangers in Iraq they were dropping 1 or 2 bombs on hangers. I believe it takes three bombs with an AH WWII bomber....with a salvo of 3.

The Norden bomb sight may have had the theoretical accuracy but there is many changes to effect bomb flight from 30K. Turbulence, air density, winds aloft and probably the temperature change.

How accurate is an F-15 E dropping a dumb bomb from 30K? If it could hit a hanger they probably don't need that fancy laser and GPS guided ordnance.   


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Kev367th

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2009, 06:25:58 PM »
Had to read the original post a few times because I found it hard to believe what I was reading.

1) Widewing - Totally agree about pot meet kettle.
2) Dar - The usual 'I can't be bothered to WATCH the map and see whats going on', so make it easier for me. For example, a large darbar appears at either a high alt base, or a base way behind enemy lines, its prob buffs. Certainly aint Interflora! There's your warning.
3) 100% fuel forced on buffs - Sure, but only if applied to all aircraft. Would stop the good old 25% or 50% fuel + drops on fighters. After all thats not really realistic either, is it?

If they took the time to get that high (most complaints are about NOE or really low level buffs) why shouldn't they gain the advantage that this affords them?

Tell ya what if the attacking force is very high level buffs why not just give the option of a 35k mid air spawn for fighters? That make you happy?


[edit] Do agree about going back to the old bomb sight.
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Offline moot

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2009, 06:34:41 PM »
The harder to calibrate bombsight, not the old laser precision calibration-free one?
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2009, 06:38:12 PM »
The harder to calibrate bombsight, not the old laser precision calibration-free one?

Yup the one were you actually had to try and hold the crosshair on a point while you calibrated.

Thinking about the whole thing, you not think that this possibly shows a further two groups of players/squads -
1) Those who watch the map and think tactically.
2) Those who don't.

Good example of 1 - Not long after the LCAs formed they were attacking a base from a field 25 miles away with no alt advantage. After numerous tries a VERY large darbar appeared at a 10k field about 75 miles away. Whole squad (about 12 of us on) jumped into K4's and headed that way, guess what? A bucket load of Lancs, and we had alt on them.
Not hard if you watch whats going on.
And yes we got accused of having a spy and the 'C' word, all because the squad as a whole thinks in a very tactical way.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 06:48:04 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline moot

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Re: Flight model abuse / grievance
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2009, 06:58:42 PM »
Myopic vision, yep.
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