Author Topic: Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?  (Read 1460 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« on: August 02, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »
I'm not quite sure what the effect of shooting a round at an angle not horizontal to your plane of motion would be.  Its something I was thinking about after reading one of the "convergance/range" threads.

I was going to respond that the bullets at 800 yards would be at an equivilent spread to the bullets at 0 yards if convergance was set at 400.  Basically just a crossing pattern.  Do the bullets not move enough right/left for there to be some kind of increase in that spread caused by the bullet not travelling perfectly straight into windflow?

It seems that a plane with a lesser convergeance range would have a drastic increase in post-convergance seperation.

I really don't know how to express what I'm thinking... and was just wondering if anyone else was thinking along these same lines and can express things a little more clearly.

AKDejaVu

Offline Fester'

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »
it is

thats why your bullets dont curve off to the downwind side when you fire

i also think it accounts for a lot of missed shots due to wind layers

p.s. i hate wind layers mroe than anything else in this game.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2001, 07:15:00 PM »
I don't mean that fester.

I mean the crosswind generated by going forward while shooting a bullet at an angle.  That's a 200-400mph crosswind.

BTW.. I've never noticed a crosswind effect in AH in regards to the plane.  Only a headwind/tailwind effect.

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Offline flakbait

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2001, 11:07:00 PM »
This could be what you're looking for, or just a dispersion effect; I honestly don't know. If you fire any gun in any buff at a 90° angle (3 o'clock, 9 o'clock) you'll see rounds fall back from the gun. It could be anything: dispersion effect, head-wind effect, or actual cross-wind effects.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Offline AKDejaVu

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2001, 11:14:00 PM »
Quote
; I honestly don't know. If you fire any gun in any buff at a 90° angle (3 o'clock, 9 o'clock) you'll see rounds fall back from the gun.

You mean it will move side to side?.. so if you are firing from the left of the buff at 90° then the bullet moves to the left?

Really, there is no way for us to tell if it is due to cross wind, or the fact that the buff is moving and the bullet is staying on its original trajectory... or if crosswind is causing the bullet to lose the sideways momentum caused by firing a gun at 200 mph sideways (bullet should be doing 200 mph sideways too).

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Offline AKDejaVu

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2001, 11:16:00 PM »
LOL! just got to thinking about a bullet being fired perpendicular to an object doing 200 mph.  Would the rotation of the bullet cause a curveball effect?

Hehehe... we need more number crunching going on.

AKDejaVu

Offline flakbait

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2001, 03:00:00 AM »
Now that you mention it, there would be a curveball effect. The Vietnam biography Firebirds was written by Chuck Carlock who flew Huey gunships. There's a note in it about the curve of the tracer stream. Here's the exact quote:

 
Quote
Our door gunners fired from ammo belts that were straight tracer rounds. I found it interesting that firing a door gun from the left side required a different aim than firing from the right. The twisting of the bullet meeting the rushing air as the helicopter flew forward caused the bullets to react differently. The bullets fired from the right door curved and dropped to the right. The bullets fired from the left rose and veered to the right. For this reason, the door gunners needed straight tracer bullets in order to "walk" the rounds up onto the target.

Of course, if you hovered the Huey over one spot you wouldn't really have a problem. Only when in forward flight was the curveball apparent. Besides, the -B model Huey gunship was so over-loaded you couldn't hover the thing anyway.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

 

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: flakbait ]

Offline Seeker

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2001, 03:19:00 AM »
Is this not testable?

If one were to set up a 100 MPH crosswind at ground level (offline); should one not be able to the the effect (or lack thereof) with tank or Osty gunnery?

A related topic.. If you're chasing a plane at 300 MPH, you're firing into a 300 MPH head wind (relative to the bullet); this would have an effect on range, no? And this helps explain why the buffs tail guns (0.50) have a longer efective range than the Pony that's chasing him...

Offline Jekyll

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »
LOOK HERE

Revolving cylinders (like bullets and cannon shells) produce lift.  The effect is more apparent where the cylinder is not perfectly parallel to the oncoming airflow.

Probably explains why a number of WW2 Aces counsel against shooting whilst in a slip or skid.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2001, 11:24:00 AM »
I tested firing at 90° in a buff and everything seems to be OK... with the possible exception of "the curveball effect".  The bullets have the initial side velocity of the aircraft and seem to decelerate in that direction.

AKDejaVu

Offline flakbait

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
Seeker, wind does have an effect on range. A 300mph headwind will drastically shorten the range, while a 300mph tail wind will give you a nice extention on max range. A headwind can and will screw with accuracy, but the tail wind doesn't; in fact it gives you a tad better accuracy. As long as you're firing straight back anyway. Shoot off to one side and the "curveball" effect will screw things up.

Here's what happens in the "curveball effect" so grab a pen. No, not for taking notes but rather as an easy demo tool. You fire a bullet into a 90° cross-wind. Bullets spin to the right from the right-hand twist of the rifling. The wind impacts the right side, where the bullet actually grips the air. Put the tip of your pen on your finger and spin it in place to the right. Now if a wind hit the pen, the pen would grip the air and force it downwards from the spin. As a result, the pen would generate more lift and climb. But since bullets aren't perfect cylinders, lift isn't generated evenly. So the front-end of your pen would come up, throwing the "bullet" into a pretty weird cork-screw. It would go high and right.

The exact opposite would happen if the wind hit the left side of our "bullet". Wind would hit the bullet, be deflected upwards by the rotation, and send the bullet into a slight dive. Since the nose-end is heavier than the ass-end, it would veer off to the right at the same time.

Forgive my horrid drawing ability, but here's a simple graphic showing the effect:

 


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Offline Seeker

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2001, 06:18:00 PM »
Thanks Flakbait, that makes sense.

Another question:

How would a pilot :

A) detect and measure a crosswind componant in flight/battle? (I'm aware that this covered on navigation training, but I'm curious if the gunnery schools approached the problem)

B) What measures would have been contemporary practise to achive a solution in wind?

Offline Jekyll

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2001, 06:46:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seeker:
Thanks Flakbait, that makes sense.

Another question:

How would a pilot :

A) detect and measure a crosswind componant in flight/battle? (I'm aware that this covered on navigation training, but I'm curious if the gunnery schools approached the problem)

B) What measures would have been contemporary practise to achive a solution in wind?

Simple answer to both A & B - don't shoot whilst in a skid.  Make sure the ball is centred before opening fire.  Firing in a skid will generate a lot more 'crosswind' component than any natural weather phenomenon ever would .. unless you like flying during a tornado  :)

Offline flakbait

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2001, 10:37:00 PM »
I checked to see if there was a curveball effect in AH earlier today....nope. Either rifling twist isn't modeled, crosswind dynamics aren't modeled, or they just skipped the whole mess and stuck to basic ballistics. So Seeker you don't have to worry about cross-wind shooting; it ain't modeled yet!


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Offline Tony Williams

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Is cross-wind acceleration modeled on bullet trajectory?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2001, 02:17:00 AM »
Yes, shooting in a skidding plane is no way to achieve accuracy (although modern FCS can take the cross-wind effect into account).

The problems of accurate shooting at long range in WW2 were huge and very few pilots had the shooting skills to achieve it, particularly if there was any kind of deflection involved.  I have just finished reading Sakai's book (the Japanese ace credited with 64 victories, including several multiple kills per mission).  It is noticeable that he regarded 200m as "long range" and preferred to close to 50m or less before opening fire.  So did the German ace Hartmann.

Only with the introduction of the gyro gunsight (mainly in 1944) did average pilots stand much chance of hitting anything in deflection shooting, and only the Allies had that.

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