A reverse question.

[TexMurphy]

One of the trickier situations that I tend to face is when I am on the deck and have the enemy on my six at 1.5k and slowly closing. Enemy has slightly more E so extending or climbing out of it is not a valid option. The E difference isnt high enough to consider a overshoot.

1.5k is crap because you really cant reverse using a immel and dive in to merge with him because he is to close. Go high and the risk is really high that he will have a great shot on you. At 2.0k or more I feel safe doing a immel and taking a merge but not at 1.5k.

Doing a flat turn is obviously out of the question.

Doing a high YoYo. I feel its a bit too slow reverse and I might be giving up a quite decent deflection shot.

The problem as I see it is that as soon as I do a manouver that is on a vector other then my original line of flight then the enemy will close the distance very quickly. This is why I dont feel too comfy in the high YoYo as it puts me on a very slow relative speed to my enemy.

One non standard manouver Ive been using a bit in this situation is a very barrel roll that I pull quite wide inorder to give me some alt out of it and at the top I make a split S and come in to merge.

Through out the entire barrel roll section and the intitial part of the split s Im more or less moving along my original vector so there is no big slow down in relative speed. The relative speed is only low through out the vertical part of the slit s which is relativly short time.

This can give me a merge with my enemy. But this doesnt realy help me that much my enemy now has a quite big E advantage. Ive most likely only got 1 immel left of energy in my plane, if even that. Which means sure I can get a gun solution on a dweeb but not on a decent pilot.

So what do I do???

How do I reverse this sitaution in a way that doesnt put me in gun solution of my enemy and gives me a decent chance to get a good gunsolution.

Tex

[ImADot]

I read the subject line and thought you were posing the reverse of a question; in other words - an answer. 

Sorry I don't have any good reply, as I suck and have trouble with reversals myself.

[Niros]

Sometimes i face them ( sometimes i feel he's not so good pilot ).
All what i try to do is to make him lose E.
Not trying to post again an old film of mine, but here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6pvI1upPuQ&feature=channel_page

at min 3:43 is my trying.

[Murdr]

you can split-s back to merge with most fighters at D1.5k.  Actually, thats about the minimum distance for most fighters to reverse to a pursuier.

[TequilaChaser]

One of the trickier situations that I tend to face is when I am on the deck and have the enemy on my six at 1.5k and slowly closing. Enemy has slightly more E so extending or climbing out of it is not a valid option. The E difference isnt high enough to consider a overshoot.

Doing a flat turn is obviously out of the question.

The problem as I see it is that as soon as I do a manouver that is on a vector other then my original line of flight then the enemy will close the distance very quickly. This is why I dont feel too comfy in the high YoYo as it puts me on a very slow relative speed to my enemy.



So what do I do???

How do I reverse this sitaution in a way that doesnt put me in gun solution of my enemy and gives me a decent chance to get a good gunsolution.

Tex

one thing, Tex, and I am sure you know this by now! is: you should treat every potential engagement as if it is you going up a against a well seasoned player.........so 1st thing you would want to consider is judging just how good your opponent is in relation to your own skills......

this being said. You ( well "I" ) would actually do a Flat Break Turn, as where you think it is obviously out of the question, here, I think the opposite way..... If I am going to have to engage an attacker that is bearing down on me, then this 1.5K seperation with him in tow is just about perfect for me to begin a slight flat turn in either direction ( aircraft depending ).

What I will be looking for is two-fold, here.

#1- as I begin the flat turn, watching my opponent thru the 6 view/high 6 view, is he beginning to pull into a high yoyo manuever? or #2- is he flying "Gunsight BFM"......... even if he is a seasoned player and skilled, the 2 things I just mentioned are telltale signs on what my next course of action is........if he starts to pull nose up into a high yoy, I perform the breakturn at near blackout and climb up under his low 6! If he is going for the pure pursuit/gunsight BFM, then I set him up for the overshoot by leading him in closer, as he gets closer the tighter I make the flat turn and then reverse direction...either by flat scissors/rolling scissors/defensive barrel roll manuevering........the whole point is to get him near equal of my 3--9 line or force him out frornt.......all while trying to maintain at least maneuvering speed ( manuevering speed being aircraft dependent).

I would not even think of immels & split-s's in your opening posted scenario of being on the deck and bogey being 1.5k behind........

not every encounter is the same, but most every encounter will leave you with experience for the next one!

hope this helps, Sir!

[The Fugitive]

Look at it this way, in the situation your in if you do nothing your dead and have lost the fight, so ANYTHING is an improvement.  

If its me, one thing is to slow a bit and start a flat turn into him. If its gradual enough he won't notice the turn so much other than he is closing. Under 1k tighten the turn quicker and be close to black out when he is close enough for a shot. As he shoots or continues in, barrel roll in the opposite direction and be ready for a quick shot opportunity. No you have him turning to come back around, or have sent him to the tower with your awesome aim. Either way its a different fight.

A flat turn isn't a bad thing. A sustained flat turn is a bad thing because they will know where you are going. In this instance you want them to go to that "shot point" so you can turn the tables and get your guns on them. So using a flat turn you are suckering them into a postion you can attack from.

[TequilaChaser]

Look at it this way, in the situation your in if you do nothing your dead and have lost the fight, so ANYTHING is an improvement.  

If its me, one thing is to slow a bit and start a flat turn into him. If its gradual enough he won't notice the turn so much other than he is closing. Under 1k tighten the turn quicker and be close to black out when he is close enough for a shot. As he shoots or continues in, barrel roll in the opposite direction and be ready for a quick shot opportunity. No you have him turning to come back around, or have sent him to the tower with your awesome aim. Either way its a different fight.

A flat turn isn't a bad thing. A sustained flat turn is a bad thing because they will know where you are going. In this instance you want them to go to that "shot point" so you can turn the tables and get your guns on them. So using a flat turn you are suckering them into a postion you can attack from.

[Ghosth]

Show them the candy, then make the candy disappear.

Start with a nice easy break turn to sucker them in, and increase their closure rate. At about 600 I'd take them into a classic murdr's barrel roll defense. Great films detailing exactly how to do this on the trainers site.

OR, if you have friends coming into the fight lead him into a drag for someone else.

If I didn't feel confident about either I'd reverse back into him going up enough to make him think i'm going for a classic Immelman. He's going to track me up trying for the easy shot. But I'd probably slide off to the side partway through, to avoid the face shot,  nose down towards him and roll onto his 6.  If you pull it off you've ducked his shot, and reversed the situation.

If not your still no worse off than you were before, except now your both actively maneuvering. Opening up more options.

[TexMurphy]

If its me, one thing is to slow a bit and start a flat turn into him. If its gradual enough he won't notice the turn so much other than he is closing. Under 1k tighten the turn quicker and be close to black out when he is close enough for a shot. As he shoots or continues in, barrel roll in the opposite direction and be ready for a quick shot opportunity. No you have him turning to come back around, or have sent him to the tower with your awesome aim. Either way its a different fight.

Yes!

Thank you. This is exactly what I do at higher alt when Im beeing bounced by a BnZ. Why not do it in this situation as well???

The hairy part here is that you do give him a shot. In the higher alt position with the BnZer the shot is quite hard to hit since I always try to give the tunr a bit of a twist and start the roll just as he is about to open up. This creates alot of "unseen" vectors. But I would assume this to be a bit harder to do near the deck as the flat turn has to be flat and cant be tilted as much as it can be on higher alt. Also what makes the shot easier is that it will be in lower speeds which makes it easier to aim. Still I should be able to roll out of his gun solution.

Have to try this.

Thanks
Tex

[Anaxogoras]

1.5k is crap because you really cant reverse using a immel and dive in to merge with him because he is to close. Go high and the risk is really high that he will have a great shot on you. At 2.0k or more I feel safe doing a immel and taking a merge but not at 1.5k.

You must fly Spits; in what other aircraft is an immelmann with a bandit 2k on your 6 a sane option?

Anyway, I do the maneuver t-chaser, fugitive, and ghosth describe, but to me calling the second part a barrel roll is a little misleading... it's more like a big corkscrew roll (my own made-up name).  For example, if you turn to the right initially, watch your attacker with your up view.  Once you see him pulling lead for a shot, roll left and pitch up.  Keep rolling left until your wings are banked 90 degrees, and you will see your attacker pass under your left wing.  With practice, you will learn to time this maneuver with a snap shot opportunity.

[humble]

All been said but Ghost & TC mirror my thoughts. Given the scenario described I want to accomplish 2 things...

1) Gauge my opponent
2) hide my "hole card"

So I'm firmly in the slow flat (or slightly nose down) turn club.

In my mind my ideal is to get the guy (even a good pilot) thinking "gun sight BFM" {I like that phrase TC }. While I have to be reactive my plan is to get him slightly nose down accelerating into the shot...then as per above tightening the turn and driving the nose down looking for what I call the Greebo/blukitty drop and pop reverse. My evasive is actually picking up speed for me while forcing him out in front of my 3/9 line.

[DamnedRen]

1.5K? You can normally reverse into a guy anywhere from 1200 yds down to 400 depending on the plane yer in.

I'd turn right back into him and set him up at the merge and be on his 6 inside 3/4 turn. If you have no ammo and wish to bug out reverse and tuck under him. You end up with a huge E advantage as you drive away because you merely turned 90 degrees while forcing him to turn 270 degrees. Your 90 degree turn was almost unloaded while his 270 degree turn was hard G. You can even take him up at that point and follow through with a 90 degree turn into an easy rope. The possibilities are endless...

Hope this helps.

Ren
Aces High Training Corps

[Qrsu]

Get some practice in the TA. Let the guys who are trigger happy come at you from any possible angle and just work on reversing them... you'll find you get better by just playing out a bunch of random scenarios with people and planes of different type and skill levels. As mentioned above, the possibilities are endless when you have a bogey on your six, twelve, seven... whatever. You just gotta TRY things out, expand your repetoir and get better at using those tools!

At least, this is my approach. 

[morfiend]

Tex,
 2 things stick out to me in your post,on the deck and slight E advantage.

Being on the deck will limit your options,that said the biggest problem is the "slight" E advantage.You need to change the relative states of "E",since it's hard to control the other guys E I guess you have to adjust yours.I would chop throttle and break hard while watching for the enemy to follow.As soon as he commits to my turn I'd get outta plane from him.IE he's going left I start to turn right.This will open your options somewhat,you could got to a scissor move,a roll or even a yo.

Changing your E state,slowing, seems to be your best option to start the engagement.Hopefully you can trick him into passing the 3/9 line as snap said then it's a matter of pointing your guns at him. There's been some good suggestion stated above I hope I've added to them..

[Murdr]

you can split-s back to merge with most fighters at D1.5k.  Actually, thats about the minimum distance for most fighters to reverse to a pursuier.

Follow up post now that I'm viewing the board on a PC, rather than a phone rss feed where I can't post and view what I'm replying to at the same time...

What ghosth said.  The films he referred to are here.

But to my first post, that is an option if you really *want* to make a heading reversal to merge with a pursuer.  What may make me decide to split-s to merge, is the relative maneuverability of the opponent.  The closer the E state, the more difficult it is to force an overshoot.  If the opponent is much more maneuverable, that makes it even more difficult.  So if I spy a near co-E bandit, that will eventually chase me down, and I'm not confident about forcing an overshoot due to plane match up.  I will probably opt for reversing to merge.  If I am on the deck, I will make room underneath me to make a turn as the situation allows.  If it will be 30 seconds until the bogie will close to 1.5k, I will spend that 30 seconds in a very shallow climb to give myself the altitude to make a split-s or a slice-back to them.

If I have the maneuver advantage, or at least can be on par with the opponents maneuverability, I'll likely do a variation of the above link (if I want the fight).  If I want to just bug out, I'll only do what's necessary to make a flight path overshoot, and motor on my way.