Author Topic: Why have a "fighter" category?  (Read 3046 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2009, 08:19:51 AM »
Sounds like yet another "Make them play my way" whine, but I will give it a shot . . .

Why have fighter vs. attack only . . .

Because some people like to see how they fair in pure air-to-air combat. 

I sometimes use this feature to examine my stats for a single plane while flying a lot of different planes each tour. Put everything else on "attack" and see how I am fairing in that single one. The last time I remember doing that was back in tour 99 when I was flying the 262 extensively
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2009, 12:41:52 PM »
I sometimes use this feature to examine my stats for a single plane while flying a lot of different planes each tour. Put everything else on "attack" and see how I am fairing in that single one. The last time I remember doing that was back in tour 99 when I was flying the 262 extensively

What does putting everything in attack do for you? 
Do you only get scores for attacking a ground target ie objects, GV's?
What is the pros and cons of using either one?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 12:44:12 PM by Dadsguns »


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Offline stickpig

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 01:33:55 AM »
I think that is what is being asked pertaining to the latter part of your comment.
How can it be abused?


Log on about 2am midweek, find some new guys, club them 10 times in fighter mode, then fly rest of tour in attack mode.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 05:09:05 AM »
What does putting everything in attack do for you? 
Do you only get scores for attacking a ground target ie objects, GV's?
What is the pros and cons of using either one?

The example I gave was purley stats driven - to see my hit %, K/S etc in a certain plane type.
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 08:20:06 AM »

Log on about 2am midweek, find some new guys, club them 10 times in fighter mode, then fly rest of tour in attack mode.
:rofl  Are you serious?  That may explain why most of the top 100 can be easily killed and are so timid...   :lol


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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2009, 08:32:36 AM »
It sounds to me that someone is looking at their score and has decided that their over all score is being brought down by the fighter score because they suck in fighters  :devil

Each of the scoring charts has their place, and reflect the area they cover well. The problem is with people gaming the system to get the best score and thus "Win". If everyone just played the game the score could actually be used as a pretty good scale. Scores would mean something. Those who spend their time capturing bases would have good attack score as well as bomber score but wouldn't fair so well in fighters...dieing to protect goons and hvy fighters and such. While those who prefer fighting would have good fighters scores but but everything else would be bad.


Offline Dadsguns

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2009, 10:06:41 AM »
The problem is with people gaming the system to get the best score and thus "Win".

Out of all your gibberish, you got one thing right....  :aok 

The question is how can you determine it by what your seeing in a pilots score, an obvious sign?

Log on about 2am midweek, find some new guys, club them 10 times in fighter mode, then fly rest of tour in attack mode.


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Offline E25280

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2009, 11:59:15 PM »
In honor of mr. 1boner, I thought I would take up a plane and actually use a fighter sortie to try to get one of these marvelously good single-sortie fighter scores people don't like.  You know -- just to be a jerk.   :t

Saw a flight of B-24s.  Oh boy!  Lucky day!

One pass, guns blazing, up and over for a second pass . . . and an LA-7 my crappy SA failed to detect shoots off my tail.

Immediately launch to try to find said LA-7 and buff group again -- only to find out the hard way (crappy SA again) that the field was now under vulch.

Temporarily forgetting the whole Fighter/Attack thing and my attempt to "honor" mr. 1boner, I proceed to get smacked several more times trying to defend the base . . .


Teach me to get cheeky!
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2009, 12:14:32 AM »
Personally, I could care less what happens as I don't really put much thought into score..  K/D maybe just to see how I'm doing..  But actual score is meaningless to me..
Sometimes I find myself in a certain mode for almost a whole tour without ever knowing....

Thats horse squeeze! The first thing you do after getting shot down is go check the guys score that killed you which implies you care very much about it except trying to do something about it.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2009, 12:31:03 AM »
Not that it means much, but you have some fairly good "building" kills under "attack" and only 1 actually "killed" anything.

And as far as Bombers are concerned, what else would you suggest they score on?

Bombers can be "gamey' but not fractionally as much as the fighter/attack mode can be misused.

I'm not tryin to cut you down, but now having that knowledge makes your statement fall kinda flat.

But I still kinda agree with your initial statement none the less as far as the attack mode and buildings are concerned.  :salute

So again i will ask, If you can kill both ground and air in attack mode, why have a fighter mode?

Since attack scores hits on buildings and fighters do not there are two categories and that has to be the primary reason.

My take on 'gamey' is that everyone in the arena is 'gamey' or they are sitting in the tower pondering what went wrong the last sortie.
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2009, 09:42:45 AM »
That's horse squeeze! The first thing you do after getting shot down is go check the guys score that killed you which implies you care very much about it except trying to do something about it.

May I interject here,
I too do not and may I dare say many others do not care about score much less anyone elses, but since the game is based upon score/rank it merits a better understanding of how it works and how it is being taken advantage of so that everyone is aware and may clear up some misunderstanding.
 
For example and as I stated before, you would expect that IF someone is ranked higher than you that they would be better than you and have more skill/ACM, however I have seen many instances of that not being completely and sometimes remotely true.  Why? 
Is it because they DONT have that skill and are manipulating or gaming their score for the rank only?  Most likely. 
So what is the big secret?  Are more doing it than will admit?  Will it explain the timidness of many? 
They may not consider what they are doing gamey, but others may and it raises many more questions than answers.

Anyone can PM me if your not comfortable discussing it out in the open because this obviously is a touchy subject, I just want to know can it be manipulated and how? Not one aces high nuclear and plutonium member team guy got a chart on that?  No fancy display?  Cant dig something out about that topic and "the lameness" behind it? 

Does it explain that you really don't see many of these top guns around nearly as often as everyone else?  Is it because they are out working their scores vice actually shooting someone down?  I don't know, but you just don't see these elite ones around very often at best.

The community screams and cries about fairness and better gameplay, I am one that will throw the chips down and let them fall as they may, however I see that many don't and will use any flaw in this game to an advantage and if it is known, nothing is being done about it other than hiding it which leads to it either being accepted or ignored. 

IMO

What does putting everything in attack do for you? 
Do you only get scores for attacking a ground target ie objects, GV's?
What is the pros and cons of using either one?

I raised these questions two days ago, is there anyone NOT padding their score remaining in this game that is knowledgeable enough from the snoopy team to answer them?

« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:16:31 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2009, 11:11:10 AM »
No offence, but your posts are some of the hardest to understand... maybe you need a couple more coffees before posting   :D


May I interject here,
I too do not and may I dare say many others do not care about score much less anyone elses, but since the game is based upon score/rank it merits a better understanding of how it works and how it is being taken advantage of so that everyone is aware and may clear up some misunderstanding.
 
For example and as I stated before, you would expect that IF someone is ranked higher than you that they would be better than you and have more skill/ACM, however I have seen many instances of that not being completely and sometimes remotely true.  Why? 

Because this game has a high learning curve and most new players can't handle it so they go for the easier road, score board manipulation.

 
Quote
Is it because they DONT have that skill and are manipulating or gaming their score for the rank only?  Most likely. 

Definitely ! Its too hard to become a good fighter jock, takes too long to bomb and return, its hard to find GV's unless you see them spawn.

Quote
So what is the big secret?  Are more doing it than will admit?  Will it explain the timidness of many? 

There is no secret, do a search on the boards and you will find many ways to game the scoreboard. I would say 50% of the players are doing it on purpose, and another 20% do it just to look respectable on the scoreboards. The other 30% couldn't care less about the scores. I think most of the "timidness" you see is due to lack of skill. I think most people who get a con on their tail have no idea what to do other than run or die. Their skill is the cherry pick or the shoot over someones shoulder in the gang maneuver, and thats about it for their "bag of tricks". If they get caught with a con on there tail they KNOW they are dead unless a friendly comes and "picks" them off, another reason they stay in their horde.

 
Quote
They may not consider what they are doing gamey, but others may and it raises many more questions than answers.

Anyone can PM me if your not comfortable discussing it out in the open because this obviously is a touchy subject, I just want to know can it be manipulated and how? Not one aces high nuclear and plutonium member team guy got a chart on that?  No fancy display?  Cant dig something out about that topic and "the lameness" behind it? 

Does it explain that you really don't see many of these top guns around nearly as often as everyone else?  Is it because they are out working their scores vice actually shooting someone down?  I don't know, but you just don't see these elite ones around very often at best.

The community screams and cries about fairness and better gameplay, I am one that will throw the chips down and let them fall as they may, however I see that many don't and will use any flaw in this game to an advantage and if it is known, nothing is being done about it other than hiding it which leads to it either being accepted or ignored. 

IMO

I raised these questions two days ago, is there anyone NOT padding their score remaining in this game that is knowledgeable enough from the snoopy team to answer them?



Here are 3 players scores, 2 who couldn't care less about score and 1 who does.








Like I said in an earlier post, if people just played the game you could see what type of player they are by their score. The scoreboard could be used as a true measuring stick. The first two pictures are players who in my opinion don't care much about their score. In saying that I mean they are NOT gaming the scoreboard. They just play the game and let the scores fall where they may.

The first is a fighter jock. He has a good k/d, and a good k/s. He fly's an average number of hours a month, and spends only a small percentage of time in other roles than he fighter.

The second is a "team player". He does what ever it takes to help his team, Again an average time in the game a month, but his time is spread out a bit more. His fighter time is most likely defense, and his attack is offense. His bomber time is more likely goon runs than buffs, and he is a target to flush out GVs for his mates  ;)

The third guy is after score. His time in game is way above normal, but its how its split that gives you pause. Fighter score is pretty good, but then you compare his time in the fighter with the time in attack, it looks like he's trying to save that score. Hes a pretty good spawn camper....whats that about 1 kill every 2 minutes?

Scores are easy to tweak, and many people do it because they can't earn them how they were "meant" to be earned. Of the top 25 people overall on the scoreboard I'd say only a half dozen are any good. Even I could beat most of the rest and I suck! Squads today teach new players how to tweak the scores in stead of how to do a split S or a high yo-yo. I'm not going to list the ways to tweak your score. Why make it any easier?

I believe that HTC could change the scoring to create better gameplay. Make it so that if your trying to pad your bombing score the only way to do it is to hit targets ABOVE a certain altitude. Make it so you MUST RTB. If you do the Lancstuka move you get 1% of points, you hit the same target from above 5k and RTB you get 100%. Make it worth it to do it the way it was intended. Make it so people would have to learn to do it the way it was intended. Changing these buff points like this would,

  • Make better buff pilots
  • buff pilots would learn to shot to defend themselves
  • fighter pilots would cover buffs
  • fighters would fight buffs and cover more creating more fights
  • attacks would have more in the way of "plans" instead of just brute force

While changing score won't change the play of ALL players it would change the play of the MAJORITY of players and I think bring back better game play.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:13:21 AM by The Fugitive »

Offline E25280

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2009, 11:40:11 AM »

Quote from: Dadsguns on March 26, 2009, 12:41:52 PM
What does putting everything in attack do for you? 
Do you only get scores for attacking a ground target ie objects, GV's?
What is the pros and cons of using either one?

I raised these questions two days ago, is there anyone NOT padding their score remaining in this game that is knowledgeable enough from the snoopy team to answer them?
I thought I had answered these to an extent.

The complaint is that someone will "get ahead" in some nefarious way in their fighter rank, and then "sit on their lead" in that category by switching everything to attack mode.  Then when the BBS or in-game size comparisons start, the lamer-gamer whips out his #6 fighter rank as "proof" he is an AH god -- and that just urks people.
Apparently.

Meanwhile, there are enough people that play the ground game, generally using attack type, that the scores here easily even out.  And if someone "calls" you on your low attack rank, you have the built-in excuse of "oh, I do a lot of porking missions" or whatnot.  On the other hand, someone who has a better attack rank than you can be easily dismissed as a lame toolshedder and not a true "fighter pile-it."

At least, that is my take on it -- it is entirely ego-driven.  Or at least the complaint about it not being fair, anyway.

Too many people worried about how other people play the game instead of simply enjoying it for themselves.


I still may be off on what you are really asking -- if you really don't understand the scoring system, or really want to know some of the ways to "game the game" to improve your own rank, there are help files and other threads that can probably answer those questions better than I, but I would be happy to respond to a PM with what little knowledge I have.
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Offline ink

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2009, 11:54:16 AM »
alright Fugitive

dissect my score, should be nice and easy.

Late War Tour 110 Statistics for INK
        Fighter  Bomber  Attack  Veh./Boat Total
 Kills      254    0    3    0    257
Assists    43    0    0    0    43
Sorties    225    0    3    0    228
 Landed    45    0    0    0    45
 Bailed    30    0    0    0    30
 Ditched    4    0    0    0    4
 Captured    30    0    0    0    30
 Deaths    114    0    3    0    117
 Discos    2    0    0    0    2
Time hh:mm:ss    40:06:08    00:00:00    00:26:26    00:00:00    40:32:34
   Rank    564    4737    2618    4876    3411

                           Score      Rank  
Kills per Death + 1    1.44    900
Kills per Sortie            1.13    611
Kills per Hour of Flight    6.34    577
Kills Hit Percentage    4.93    1564
Kill Points            16346.96    564

Late War Tour 110 Statistics for INK
     Kills    Deaths
Model Kills In,Kills Of,,Killed By,Died In
A-20G    0    2    0    0
A6M2    0    3    0    2
A6M5b    0    10    5    0
Ar 234    0    1    0    0
B-17G    0    1    3    0
B-24J    0    4    1    0
Bf 109F-4    3    3    2    3
Bf 109G-14 5    5    3    3
Bf 109G-2    0    1    0    0
Bf 109G-6    5    0    1    7
Bf 109K-4    3    4    2    2
Bf 110C-4b 0    1    0    0
Boston III    0    1    0    0
C-47A    0    4    0    0
C.202    2    0    0    2
C.205    2    2    1    1
Chute    1    0    0    0
F4U-1    0    1    1    0
F4U-1A    3    11    3    3
F4U-1C    13    3    0    5
F4U-1D    0    12    5    0
F4U-4    4    0    0    1
F6F-5    0    2    4    0
FM2    0    2    0    0
Fw 190A-5    0    1    3    0
Fw 190A-8    11    8    3    2
Fw 190D-9    0    7    4    0
Fw 190F-8    0    2    0    0
Gunner    1    0    0    0
Hurri Mk IIC 54    5    4    38
Hurri Mk IID 0    1    0    0
Il-2             0    0    1    0
Ju 88    0    1    0    0
Ki-61    18    2    0    10
Ki-67    0    2    0    0
Ki-84-Ia    0    6    3    0
La-5FN    2    2    0    1
La-7    15    7    3    16
Lancaster III 0    2    1    0
M-3    0    1    1    0
Me 262    0    0    1    1
Mosq Mk VI 3    1    0    3
N1K2           49    16    7    25
Ostwind    0    0    1    0
P-38G    0    2    0    0
P-38J    0    4    1    0
P-38L    3    3    1    1
P-40B    0    0    1    1
P-40E    0    0    0    1
P-47-D11    0    1    0    0
P-47-D25    1    1    0    1
P-47-D40    0    6    1    0
P-47N    0    2    1    0
P-51B    3    2    1    0
P-51D    17    28    22    17
Panzer IV H    0    0    1    0
PT Boat    0    4    1    0
SeaFire    0    3    3    0
Ship Gunner    0    0    1    0
Spitfire Mk IX    0    7    9    0
Spitfire Mk V    0    5    2    0
Spitfire Mk VIII    0    12    11    0
Spitfire Mk XIV    0    1    1    0
Spitfire Mk XVI    13    30    21    2
Ta 152H    1    0    0    3
Tempest    28    1    4    3
Typhoon IB    3    8    6    0
Wirbelwind    0    1    2    0
Yak-9T    0    1    0    0
Yak-9U    0    4    3    2
     263 Kills    156 Deaths



so what do you get from that?

Offline FiLtH

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Re: Why have a "fighter" category?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2009, 11:57:43 AM »
  I'd like to see another catagory added. The torpedo mode. PTs may mess it up not sure if they could be excluded, but an aerial torpedo score would be nice to add to the mix.  While we're at it, make rocket kills a separate form of scoring as well.

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