Frame 3 After-Action Reports

[Ponyace]

Axis CO here, but for the record, I thought things went very badly for the Axis (I see now the results were fairly balanced).  We were getting spanked in the center defense area, and the only thing that saved us was that several of the bombing attempts were off the mark, making a second follow up attack necessary.  We regrouped as best we could, but the numbers quickly went in the Allies favor.  The one area that went well for us was the attacks on the Allies shipping.  I was very pleased with the Unforgiven, Killuminati, Duxford Wing, Rolling Thunder, Precision, and Mighty 316th.  That is one 16-21 squad, one 7-10, and one 4-6 squad per target.  The small squad scouted, with an attack and escort squad following behind.

Also, I must congratulate the Arabian Knights for taking a big chunk out of the Allies avalanche of planes.  They held the line well against very nasty odds.  Salute to the rest of the Axis squads too for a job well done, and to the Allies for being such a tough opponent.  It was a very fun event.

Well, glad to know that the Allies weren't completely destroyed.
I apologize for not coming. There was a storm where I live, and my internet provider was down from Friday till today. Overall, it looks like it was a very even fight. It will be very interesting to see the score.

[442w30]

So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 folling any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us.  BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.

In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112.  Yours a 7-10, and 3- 4-6 squads. That is a commitment level of 19-28.  11-16 in Seafires that were requested by those squads and 4-6 each of Spits and P38G.  So you are telling me that you were fighting 2:1 odds, that the Axis sent 38-56 aircraft to attack a relatively insignificant CV group when they had another task force to attack as well as 8 bases to defend?  I do not have access to the Axis orders but suspect that was not the case. 

The Allied CiC in every frame had to defend two targets and attack 8 which means that the CiC had to use a lot of bombers.  Figure in about 250 planned for pilots, is 25 pilots for each of the 10 targets/defenses.   I suggest that before you complain too much about how bad of a deal your squad got, that you look at the big picture and consider that maybe assets have to be allocated to places where you do not happen to be. 

"vs better flying and faster German Iron"  ???  Better talk to Tex. Your squad requested Seafires and they were given what they requested, as was 880th in Spits and 5th Air Force in P38G.  I was not required in Frame I to assign anyone to Seafires, but I attempt to give squads what they request. Which is not always possible.   880 Fleet Air Arm and yourself are Naval Squads and as such when you requested the only Naval aircraft in the plane set, I was happy to give them to you.

Better luck in future FSO 

[Stoney]

In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112.

My question to Boxboy was for Frame 3 only.  This kind of discussion is neither relevant nor helpful.

[TEXAS20]

  JOKERS JOKERS   great job!

[snakeplissken]

So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 folling any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us.  BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.

Hello Boxboy.  U may have met the Unforgiven.  We were 110's and went NOE to the CV.  We had 2 free passes when were were jumped by Seafires.  We sank the CV, the Cruiser, the Destroyers, we came back and strafed life rafts... then we went and sold the women and children.  We met High B-26's escorted by P38's and had alot of fun there... Overall we had some wine and cheese, groovy weather, listened to some tunes and turned the LZ into a beach party....

[AKKaz]

Also, I must congratulate the Arabian Knights for taking a big chunk out of the Allies avalanche of planes.  They held the line well against very nasty odds.  Salute to the rest of the Axis squads too for a job well done, and to the Allies for being such a tough opponent.  It was a very fun event.

  TracerX, TY and all will be passed on to the rest of the squad.  Always glad to do what we can.

AKKaz
CO Arabian Knights

[snakeplissken]

  Tracer.  Thanks from The Unforgiven.  Every FSO is different.  You really can't fault the planners.  Think what a job that is... I am going to assemble of group of guys... that may or may not be there depending on what's going on in real life... with different skills (and impairments)... and fling them against another group... that may or may not be there... And we will see how it all works out.  My squad was very lucky and had their name in lights for all three frames.  But what can go wrong will probably go wrong in FSO.  My squad is hooked on the event and if you were to listen in on our radio chatter... it's a wonder we get any thing accomplished.  But the overall goal is the same... It's Friday night hanging out with your friends with something to do.  I thought everybody did a great job... and success?  Well, it's measured in numbers... More and More players are interested in FSO.  The task... have fun!

[Boxboy]

In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112.  Yours a 7-10, and 3- 4-6 squads. That is a commitment level of 19-28.  11-16 in Seafires that were requested by those squads and 4-6 each of Spits and P38G.  So you are telling me that you were fighting 2:1 odds, that the Axis sent 38-56 aircraft to attack a relatively insignificant CV group when they had another task force to attack as well as 8 bases to defend?  I do not have access to the Axis orders but suspect that was not the case. 

The Allied CiC in every frame had to defend two targets and attack 8 which means that the CiC had to use a lot of bombers.  Figure in about 250 planned for pilots, is 25 pilots for each of the 10 targets/defenses.   I suggest that before you complain too much about how bad of a deal your squad got, that you look at the big picture and consider that maybe assets have to be allocated to places where you do not happen to be. 

"vs better flying and faster German Iron"  ???  Better talk to Tex. Your squad requested Seafires and they were given what they requested, as was 880th in Spits and 5th Air Force in P38G.  I was not required in Frame I to assign anyone to Seafires, but I attempt to give squads what they request. Which is not always possible.   880 Fleet Air Arm and yourself are Naval Squads and as such when you requested the only Naval aircraft in the plane set, I was happy to give them to you.

Better luck in future FSO 

Well if you had read my post you would have noticed that I said we did quite well in frame 1, as for planning the bomber guys get 3 planes so 10 of them vs a target is 30 aircraft in the air (which they can jump back and forth in giving them 3 lives vs 1 for a fighter pilot).  Oh well not to worry, we will be at the next FSO as well and will of course want to do our CV operations.  A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F.  Anyhow just write it all off to "frustration" at being out flown I guess

[Saxman]

A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F.

No doubt. They could have at least included some F4Fs.

[Shifty]

A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F. 

There's nothing that can be done about that. You're a Navy pilot you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

[Stoney]

No doubt. They could have at least included some F4Fs.

So, exactly how many Martlet squadrons were present for Operation Avalanche?

[Shifty]

So, exactly how many Martlet squadrons were present for Operation Avalanche?

Stoney since you asked...

I did a little research at this site.  http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Home.html

Here is a list of Fleet Air Arm units who participated in Operation Avalanche by aircraft type.

(That I could find.) YMMV

Before I type the list let me say we requested the Seafire in VF-17 and got what we asked for.
The Martlet or F4F would not have made any difference in the outcome.
Our failure to defend the TF was ours, not our aircraft's nor was it the fault of the CICs.
Hopefully this discussion over the CVs can rest now. There's a new Operation to worry about.

Fleet Air Arm Units Operation Avalanche

Seafire Squadrons.

807
808
809
834
879
880
886
894
899

Martlet (F4F) Squadrons

878
888
890
893

Spitfire Mk IIb Squadron

887

Spitfire Mk V Squadron

897

Barracuda Squadron

810

Albacore Squadron

820

<S>

[Stoney]

Stoney since you asked...

Do you know what they were assigned with?  My research had them doing convoy escort/U-Boat patrols and not engaged directly in the operation.  That's why they weren't included.  Perhaps Warloc will chime in--he has a lot of FAA resources.

[Shifty]

Here is what the Fleet Air Arm link I gave above has listed on its Battle Honors link for Operation Avalanche.

Salerno 1943
 Operation Avalanche, support of landing forces at Salerno on the Mainland of Italy, 9 September to 6 October 1943.

Awarded to Squadron numbers: 807, 808, 809, 810, 820, 834, 878, 879, 880, 886, 887, 888, 890, 893, 894, 897, 899.

Awarded to HM aircraft carrying ships: Attacker, Battler, Formidable, Hunter, Illustrious, Stalker.
 
I had to research each squadron on the same site to find what aircraft they flew during the time period of Operation Avalanche.

Hopefully Warloc can shed more light on this.

This statement.... "Operation Avalanche, support of landing forces at Salerno on the Mainland of Italy, 9 September to 6 October 1943."
could very well mean nothing more than U-Boat patrol for some of the units. Sometimes unit participation in an operation can be painted with a pretty broad brush.

[Stoney]

Well yeah, I saw that from your previous link.  What I would like to see are some resources that show they got rounds off against German air or ground targets.