how do you beat the luftberry?

[caldera]

Often times when gaining the advantage against a Spit (particularly 16s), they go into the on the deck "NASCAR" style one man luftberry. Round and round and round. Of course, I'm a moron for getting suckered into this situation. What are my options for beating this once I realize I'm stuck in it?


Here is one example of what I'm talking about:

http://files.filefront.com/nascar+spitahf/;13532098;/fileinfo.html

Granted, I have very little seat time in the FM2, but this guy was running circles around me. Pun intended.

And I apologize for some of the views, as I'm ham-fisted and bump into the zoom button all the time. 

[PFactorDave]

Seemed to me like you should have been dumping the flaps out a bit more and kicking some rudder into that turn.  I could be wrong though, I never fly the FM2.  If I had been the Spit driver, I would have tried to spiral you up a bit to take advantage of the Spit16s power.

[Saxman]

A Spit XVI entered a slow, flat-turning contest with you in an FM-2, and you LOST? The FM-2 will eat any Spit except MAYBE the Mk.I alive in a sustained turning contest (I LOVE it when Spixteens try to turn with me when I'm in an FM-2   ). The only fighter that should consistently beat the FM-2 in a luftberry in the A6M, so that Spixteen is actually flying right into your game by trying it. Get some time in the FM-2 to get a feel for her, and anyone who's not flying a Zeke that tries that on you is toast.

As for escaping, with the FM-2 you don't have as many options to get out of the luftberry once you're committed. She doesn't accelerate well unless pointed downhill, and sustained rate of climb isn't remarkable either. Vertical performance is much better than the F4F-4, but she still tends to be a bit sluggish maneuvering nose-high unless you've got a decent amount of speed. Best thing to do in the Wildcat if you're in that sort of fight is to just hang on for the ride with your microscopic turn radius and get your flaps down.

Especially against the Spit dweebs that thing they can turn with everything.

[caldera]

I can't understand why I was losing either. I have beaten this move in a P-40 for God's sake. I tried flaps out. Pulled them back in and nothing.
This went on for several minutes. I gradually started losing e and finally had to make a break for it.

[BnZs]

Caldera:
Although the FM2 can fly slower and sustain a tighter turn radius, I suspect the Spit16's engine power gives it a better sustained rate. A Luftberry chase like that favors turn rate. That is why you found yourself with your nose stuck in lag and loosing angles at times.

At many points in the fight, you reduced throttle at times when you would have been better off to have not. At some of these points you were well below corner and in a level or slightly ascending turn, in a nose-to-tail chase You would gained angles quicker being closer to your corner velocity. There is time to cut throttle, when you are below corner velocity trying to out-rate someone is not that time.

From about time 00:55 while you were in a chasing descent would have been a good time to use abit more of a low-yo-yo type action to close the distance and gain some angles with lead pursuit+gravity assist in the turn. Look at a freeze frame from around time 01:20 and imagine your plane rolled farther to the left in the turn, just slightly inverted, that is what I'm talking about. More throttle cutting you probably don't need a little after this, trying to chase a Spitfire into an ascending turn...

Anyway, you end up on the deck, chasing the Spit around in the Luftberry, he's gradually gaining angles. This is not a surprise, or a pilot error on your part, logically turn rate would go to the very powerful Spit once the FM2's E is all gone. You recognized a situation going South, extended to gain abit oh E, and Grumman toughness plus that small barrel roll saved you and killed the bad guy. I would have said something here about reversing your turn to the right back into the Spit to start a nose-to-nose series of turns/flat scissor type action which *would* favor the FM2s tight-turn radius/slow flight ability, but I can see you probably thought about it and decided against it because there was big hill right off your right wing.

BTW, I feel your pain on the shooting. Many is the time I've had him RIGHT THERE but somehow he just doesn't go down. I can say that after I've turned off tracers and decided to shun zooming while shooting, things seemed to have improved abit.

<S>

[Steve]

Caldera, I have good news for your trouble and it's an easy fix. Don't let some complicated answer confuse you. I watched the first couple of minutes of the flight. You lost angles because you voluntarily surrendered E with your repeated throttle reductions.  With the spit16's stellar acceleration, an fm2 can't give away any E voluntarily. If you were worried about overshoot, you should have banked some E by yo yo'ing up. The guy that told you to  low yo yo is mistaken.  Stay in your throttle and horde that E man. Instead of chopping to avoid overshoot, I repeat, yo yo up and bank the E. an FM2 does not accelerate well enough to be surrendering E to a spit 16 like that. He wasn't outflying you; you were killing yourself.     



Steve

[BnZs]

The guy that told you to  low yo yo is mistaken. 


Steve

Steve, look this frame from around 1:20ish. He is chasing the Spitty in a descending turn. He could have gained angles on the Spitty and some airspeed by banking to the left more in his pursuit. Pointing the canopy like the black arrow instead of the red arrow. This resembles a low yo-yo to me.

Too much throttle-chopping was already covered thank you very much sir,  and stating WHY that Spit eventually started winning the Luftberry strikes me as useful information to know, not over-complication. 

[Steve]

Steve, look this frame from around 1:20ish. He is chasing the Spitty in a descending turn. He could have gained angles on the Spitty and some airspeed by banking to the left more in his pursuit. Pointing the canopy like the black arrow instead of the red arrow. This resembles a low yo-yo to me.

Too much throttle-chopping was already covered thank you very much sir,  and stating WHY that Spit eventually started winning the Luftberry strikes me as useful information to know, not over-complication. 

(Image removed from quote.)

The low yoyo won't be needed if he's on the throttle. He didn't ask how to win the lufberry if he chops throttle.

[BnZs]

The low yoyo won't be needed if he's on the throttle. He didn't ask how to win the lufberry if he chops throttle.

"If" he had stayed on the gas, "If" he had shot down the Spitty on the first opportunity,"If" he had possessed the foresight to take off in a Spit16 himself  , or if his hobby was golf, we wouldn't have this thread. Fact remains a slight adjustment of his pursuit during the descending chase would have gained alot.

[Steve]

"If" he had stayed on the gas, "If" he had shot down the Spitty on the first opportunity,"If" he had possessed the foresight to take off in a Spit16 himself  , or if his hobby was golf, we wouldn't have this thread. Fact remains a slight adjustment of his pursuit during the descending chase would have gained alot.

The fact is, he asked how to defeat a lufberry.  He did not ask hot to regain angles and E after he chopped throttle so the low yo yo does not apply. You are arguing for arguments sake, which is your MO.  Waste someone else's time, you'll get no more of mine. Ignored.

[trotter]

You cut throttle at 10 seconds. You should not have. And then again at 25-30 seconds. Realize that this is a friggin Spit 16. Do everything you can to stay attached to his ass, because you won't get that close again unless he makes a mistake. Even if you overcompensate and are attached too close. You'll get out of it. Stay as close as you can. The Spixteen is an unmaneuverable dung piece, don't give him the opportunity to gain separation, because he will.

Your throttle chop at 1:07 was the right move, but you should have upped it immediately once you realized he was not making that turn tight. As it was, you waited a bit before going full throttle again.

At ~1:35, are your flaps out? If not, why not? You can pop flaps at around that time (luftberry) and get the kill. Easily.

Ok just watched from ~1:35 on. It seems from your gauges that you do have your flaps out. One more notch and you'd have had them fully deployed. I'm not sure if you had stall limiter on, or what, but I know that an FM2 with full flaps deployed should have easily gotten around on a spixteen, if not with instantaneous turn, then overall.

I think the issue might have been in your decision to go luftberry and not use yoyo at all in gaining angles. From most of the time from ~1:35 towards the end, that poor spixteen is panicking. It's only when you can't nose around, and stall out, that he regains initiative. Again, I can't say why that occurred, but I know that luftberry in an FM2 against a spixteen should be no contest so it might be a stall limiter issue.

[trotter]

I'm watching again and I can tell you definitively your best chance is from 1:00 to 1:15.

What you do is keep full throttle and try to gain a solution in a nose down manuever, which is limiting your turn rate.

What you should have done is chop throttle and get your flaps out while turning level to the horizon. Then once your nose is in front of bandit flight path, throttle up to gain gun platform stability, and get your solution. You'd have had your nose out in front for a firing solution easily, and the fight would be over.

[BnZs]

Again, I can't say why that occurred, but I know that luftberry in an FM2 against a spixteen should be no contest so it might be a stall limiter issue.

I *can* say why it occured. Just checked Mosq's data, and it turns out that the Spit16 does sustain a slightly higher turn rate than the FM2. I am actually surprised that the rate advantage isn't more than it is. Between that, and needlessly dumping E, we have the answer.

[trotter]

I *can* say why it occured. Just checked Mosq's data, and it turns out that the Spit16 does sustain a slightly higher turn rate than the FM2. I am actually surprised that the rate advantage isn't more than it is. Between that, and needlessly dumping E, we have the answer.

Well then, it appears that MOSQ's data is highly subjective. Check out his tests for DokGonzo's fighter comparison charts. FM-2 has the edge in turn radius over Spit16, 516 to 567 without flaps, and 406 to 450 with flaps.

Not sure which is accurate, but I do know that when E is dumped unnecessarily, it costs the aggressor many a shot opportunity later in the fight. E should only be dumped in the certainty that a shot opportunity will result, or the certainty that such an offensive maneuver will create panic in an unseasoned opponent.

[BnZs]

I did not refer to turn radius. I referred to turn rate.

<S>

Well then, it appears that MOSQ's data is highly subjective. Check out his tests for DokGonzo's fighter comparison charts. FM-2 has the edge in turn radius over Spit16, 516 to 567 without flaps, and 406 to 450 with flaps.

Not sure which is accurate, but I do know that when E is dumped unnecessarily, it costs the aggressor many a shot opportunity later in the fight. E should only be dumped in the certainty that a shot opportunity will result, or the certainty that such an offensive maneuver will create panic in an unseasoned opponent.