190D-9 OTD Speed

[PJ_Godzilla]

I ran a test recently with the 190D-9. I shot up an enemy airfield and attempted to run on the deck. According to the speed tables, I should be able to outrun a P-51 with WEP engaged. Thus, I was kind of surprised to find that the lone P-51D that emerged from the airfield was able to easily climb and overtake me - and from a ways back. I did i quick couple of half barrel oscillations and he overshot, flat-turned, and came around again.

Needless to say, this ended badly for me. However, I'm now in a position to doubt the published speed table.

[WMLute]

I ran a test recently with the 190D-9. I shot up an enemy airfield and attempted to run on the deck. According to the speed tables, I should be able to outrun a P-51 with WEP engaged. Thus, I was kind of surprised to find that the lone P-51D that emerged from the airfield was able to easily climb and overtake me - and from a ways back. I did i quick couple of half barrel oscillations and he overshot, flat-turned, and came around again.

Needless to say, this ended badly for me. However, I'm now in a position to doubt the published speed table.

Couple factors you might be overlooking.

One would be fuel.  If you had a lot, and the p51 not that much, they can catch you.  Weight is a factor.

Another would be a bomb/drop tank rack.

If you flew with a DT or a bomb that lowers your top speed.  (even if you drop the d/t or the bomb the rail that held it is still there)

[Lusche]

I ran a test recently with the 190D-9. I shot up an enemy airfield and attempted to run on the deck. According to the speed tables, I should be able to outrun a P-51 with WEP engaged. Thus, I was kind of surprised to find that the lone P-51D that emerged from the airfield was able to easily climb and overtake me - and from a ways back.

This is not really a test. A true test would take place in an environment where all factors are known, documented and under your control.
As WMLute pointed out E states, plane configurations, skill and so on will all have influence and reduce this test to a mere anecdote.

If you really want to get into a position as to doubt the official table, you have to use a different, more methodological approach.

For example: Go offline, set fuel consumption to zero, set fuel loadout to 25%. Up the D-9 without any DTs, climb a bit. Get to speed, then drop to sea level with WEP on. Wait long enough for the speed to have dropped down & stabilized. Then repeat the same with the P-51. Film both tests.

[Yenny]

D9 would outrun everything but the jets, La7, and tempest (f4u-4? i can't remember). at 10k+ d9 outrun la7. I think P51 holds its E better then D9 after a dive though.

[moot]

This is not really a test. A true test would take place in an environment where all factors are known, documented and under your control.
As WMLute pointed out E states, plane configurations, skill and so on will all have influence and reduce this test to a mere anecdote.

If you really want to get into a position as to doubt the official table, you have to use a different, more methodological approach.

For example: Go offline, set fuel consumption to zero, set fuel loadout to 25%. Up the D-9 without any DTs, climb a bit. Get to speed, then drop to sea level with WEP on. Wait long enough for the speed to have dropped down & stabilized. Then repeat the same with the P-51. Film both tests.

Better yet, if you really want to know what the airframes+engines compare as, you drain the fuel in the 51 and D9 to the same fuel amount in gallons. 

[BnZs]

If you took a bomb or drop-tank, the centerline rack that remains after you discard them decreases your top level speed OTD from 375mph to 369 mph. The top level speed of the P-51D OTD is 368 mph, and the P-51D retains excess speed slightly better than a 190 D9 with the rack attached.

But you still have a decent thrust/weight advantage to work with vs. the Pony and twice the WEP. And many Pony pilots are horrible. So next time one is closing on your six, drag him out by himself and give actually fighting him a try. 

[frank3]

So next time one is closing on your six, drag him out by himself and give actually fighting him a try. 

Exactly. If you need that extra 6 mph to survive, you're doing it wrong

[PJ_Godzilla]

Those are good answers. Fuel was near zero and my DT was long since gone. However, the point regarding the diff b/w an anecdote and a test stands - and I'm well familiar with the diff. 

I may try a true test with my squaddies. We'll do comparable loadouts and drag. Alas, even this will not be a true test, though, since even flicking my rudder slightly will slow me down - but we can get close. We could probably both go on AP though a heading variation would mess it up.

I note, also, that I had auto trim on but the auto stall limiter OFF. I'm not sure what effect any of this would've had anyway. My only guess is that I might've been climbing slightly. Yes, I should've fought him, despite being just about out of fuel - macht nicht, either way. I'm still kind of miffed that I missed that first overshoot - especially since I just learned how to halfpipe/barrel roll the D9. Had I had a decent high yoyo, I probably could've got inside his flat turn.

Any detailed f/b on D9 evasive tactics, btw, would be very appreciated. I very strongly get the impression, number 1, that I should not be attempting to furball in this plane. Still, the temptation is great. BnZ is a tough life, but someone's got to do it.

The only reason I asked this question in the first place was to see if there were ever occurrences of people with planes that were non-comforming. I understand that this would require a coding difference and would thus be "inside". The developers do fly and train - yes?

[BnZs]

Any detailed f/b on D9 evasive tactics, btw, would be very appreciated. I very strongly get the impression, number 1, that I should not be attempting to furball in this plane. Still, the temptation is great. BnZ is a tough life, but someone's got to do it.


[/quote]

Honestly, against any Allied plane except a P-51 or possibly a 47, I couldn't recommend a turning fight at all.

The thing vs. these planes where your advantage is power/mass is to try to hold onto a neutral or better position as long as the relative speeds are high enough that your turning abilities are the same, and start going into the vertical when things slow down and they get their flaps out to try and really whoop you in angles fighting.

The thing to realize about defense in the Fw or any plane really, is that above a certain speed things all have the same limit-the Gs/blackout limit. If a Fw and a Spitfire are both going 400mph IAS, then you both have the same potential rate and radius of turn. If an Fw is going 300mph IAS and the Spit is going 400, there is no way for that Spit to follow the FW in something so simple as a break-turn initially. And no matter what the relative speed and plane types are, if you've got something on your close six, staying out of his line of fire as best you can and slamming on the brakes will save you more often than giving up will.

[WMLute]

Those are good answers. Fuel was near zero and my DT was long since gone. However, the point regarding the diff b/w an anecdote and a test stands - and I'm well familiar with the diff. 

I may try a true test with my squaddies. We'll do comparable loadouts and drag. Alas, even this will not be a true test, though, since even flicking my rudder slightly will slow me down - but we can get close. We could probably both go on AP though a heading variation would mess it up.

I note, also, that I had auto trim on but the auto stall limiter OFF. I'm not sure what effect any of this would've had anyway. My only guess is that I might've been climbing slightly. Yes, I should've fought him, despite being just about out of fuel - macht nicht, either way. I'm still kind of miffed that I missed that first overshoot - especially since I just learned how to halfpipe/barrel roll the D9. Had I had a decent high yoyo, I probably could've got inside his flat turn.

Any detailed f/b on D9 evasive tactics, btw, would be very appreciated. I very strongly get the impression, number 1, that I should not be attempting to furball in this plane. Still, the temptation is great. BnZ is a tough life, but someone's got to do it.

There is no reason you can't furball in a Dora.  All you have to do is fly the D9 to it's strengths.  The D9 is a wonderfull Energy fighter.  Incredible roll, great speed and climb.  The 190 series is one of the most maneuverable planes in the plane set.  Just don't flat turn 'em.  There are many other ways to get around a circle other than a flat turn.  Learn to do so, and you will find the D9 can hold it's own vs. most anything you come up against.

Players that ONLY boom and zoom in the 190's are missing about 1/2 of what that series of planes is capable of.

RE: you vs. the p51.  It sounds like you had a DT and thus still had the D/T rack and didn't have the speed edge w/ wep because of it.  I don't know why you didn't just reverse, merge and straight up fight 'em.  With flaps out the D9 has a slight edge in turn, accelerates better, climbs better w/ wep, and has a much better roll rate.

Sounds like to me you have an even fight vs. a ponyD, if not the advantage.

Overshoots are overrated.  For me they are desperate acts as opposed to primary moves.  If I am trying to force an overshoot, I screwed up somewhere.  Lets say you have a spitfire screaming in on you and closing fast.  Don't wait until they are D600 back and firing and try for an overshoot.  Reverse when they are D1.5 ish, merge, and then extend and reset the fight.  Get the spit to blow it's Energy advantage ('cause you know most spitfire pilots are just going to yank the stick, try to turn hard and blow their Energy).  If the spit pilot doesn't yank and try to turn and just keeps going, brilliant!  You also keep going and suddenly you are in the clear.  Extend a bit and level out both planes Energy states.  Once the spit doesn't have the E advantage the D9 dictates when, where, and how the fight will go from then on.

[Anaxogoras]

The P-51D does 365mph on the deck, not 368.

P-51D and 190D-9 dive acceleration is about equal, but the P-51D will retain speed for longer out of the dive.

In the 190D-9 your real advantage over the P-51D is level acceleration and climb.

[Widewing]

The P-51D does 365mph on the deck, not 368.

P-51D and 190D-9 dive acceleration is about equal, but the P-51D will retain speed for longer out of the dive.

In the 190D-9 your real advantage over the P-51D is level acceleration and climb.

P-51D @ sea level: 367 mph with 25% fuel, 368 mph with 25% fuel and 25% ammo.


My regards,

Widewing

[Mustaine]

...and my DT was long since gone.

you answer.

the rack from the drop tank reduces the top speed a minimum of 6mph

[Anaxogoras]

P-51D @ sea level: 367 mph with 25% fuel, 368 mph with 25% fuel and 25% ammo.


My regards,

Widewing

Ok, then add 365mph with 75% fuel and 100% ammo.

[Yenny]

I always fly teh D9 w/ DT, main reason is the D9 just doesn't have enough fuel to get to the fight and get back home on internal tank=/. Maybe for scrambles I'd fly it w/o DT. I'd use the DT until the last drop then drop it, no matter if I'm in a fight or just flying around searching. A lot of people just drop their DT as soon as they see the bad guy, and they'd be hurting on gas on rtb. I don't see a big different in performance w. dt on or off, except for the speed otd.