Author Topic: The Deadliest Warrior  (Read 2159 times)

Offline ODBAL

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 05:39:16 PM »
The double spear throw was just gay, I don't believe it would be any more effective than your average person shooting 2 handguns at one time.  Samurai victory.
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Offline crazyivan

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 06:18:25 PM »
pirate vs knight. Man Id love to see the  knight swim to the boat AAARRR.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »
The double spear throw was just gay, I don't believe it would be any more effective than your average person shooting 2 handguns at one time.  Samurai victory.

The double spear throw was a load of BS and I don't know WHERE the hell they got that from. A Viking would have USED HIS SHIELD. Javelin in his right hand ready to throw, with 2-3 more in his shield hand. Throw the first spear. Get another from your hand. Throw a second spear. Rinse repeat. More accurate and better power, plus he wouldn't sacrifice his defense.

Their entire premise was flawed from the start, and I wouldn't be surprised if they applied "Big and dumb" modifiers to the Viking to get his scores, and included the erroneous stereotype that Western Europe had no martial arts giving the samurai an unfair and inaccurate advantage.
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Offline superpug1

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 03:08:22 AM »
I just like seeing them mutilate pig carcasses... But nah i think it is a good show. I think that they should have modeled the fight between the pirate and the night better to reflect the results of the test. I mean the pirate did get whacked in the head with the morning star and you don't just get up from that, plus he threw sand in the knights eye, technically that was a weapon and should not have been included.

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 03:15:08 AM »
I just like seeing them mutilate pig carcasses... But nah i think it is a good show. I think that they should have modeled the fight between the pirate and the night better to reflect the results of the test. I mean the pirate did get whacked in the head with the morning star and you don't just get up from that, plus he threw sand in the knights eye, technically that was a weapon and should not have been included.


you certainly would not be able to get up after a hit from a morning star, unless you were wearing a helmet, which pirates did not :rolleyes:

sounds like the show is typically biased, not gonna bother watching it again.

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 03:24:13 PM »
I'm glad someone else knows just what a task beating a large shield+weapon is for a single sword of any type.  :D

Let me put it this way. A large shield closes off at least an entire quadrant of the opponent to attack. A shield is a tough obstacle to get around even when the shield bearer is untrained. The closing off of so much target for the opponent makes attacks to anything he can conceivably aim at that much more predictable. Say for instance, the seemingly least covered target on a guy holding a large round shield, the legs. I can't say what Viking martial arts were like, but if they were anything like later European sword arts, time cuts and thrusts to the attackers sword hand, wrist, shoulder (or head, in the case of low attack) combined with evasives were standard procedure.  Not only that, but the shield can be used to effectively close off the line of counter-attack for a time cut or thrust against the sword&shield wielder when he himself is on the offensive.

I consider the Samurai's prime advantage in this match to be the fact they clad him in head-to-toe armor, protection not quite as comprehensive or technically sophisticated as suits of full plate from the European 15th century, but formidable none-the-less. Of course, the show inanely inverted the issue of speed; The Viking, wearing only a maille-shirt and helmet, would have been the one enjoying far fewer restrictions on his mobility and agility, at the cost of less protection.

To be fair though, a spear, naginata, or other pole-arm would always be the warrior's first choice for battlefield conditions, including the samurai. And samurai would often have carried a larger sword more effective for the battlefield than the standard

It is an interesting aberration of martial history that shields don't seem to have seen much use in Japan. I attribute it to how warfare developed in Japan. The Samurai began as a mounted-archer...by the time he became a dismounted fighter, his armor had developed to the point to defend him sufficiently well and make two-handed weaponry more desirable. You see the same progression in Europe, shields becoming smaller and less used as the knights began to be covered head-to-toe with maille and plate defenses were added, simultaneously two-handed polearms and swords with a better chance to attack the new armor become more common.



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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 04:03:05 PM »
I'm glad someone else knows just what a task beating a large shield+weapon is for a single sword of any type.  :D

Let me put it this way. A large shield closes off at least an entire quadrant of the opponent to attack. A shield is a tough obstacle to get around even when the shield bearer is untrained. The closing off of so much target for the opponent makes attacks to anything he can conceivably aim at that much more predictable. Say for instance, the seemingly least covered target on a guy holding a large round shield, the legs. I can't say what Viking martial arts were like, but if they were anything like later European sword arts, time cuts and thrusts to the attackers sword hand, wrist, shoulder (or head, in the case of low attack) combined with evasives were standard procedure.  Not only that, but the shield can be used to effectively close off the line of counter-attack for a time cut or thrust against the sword&shield wielder when he himself is on the offensive.

I consider the Samurai's prime advantage in this match to be the fact they clad him in head-to-toe armor, protection not quite as comprehensive or technically sophisticated as suits of full plate from the European 15th century, but formidable none-the-less. Of course, the show inanely inverted the issue of speed; The Viking, wearing only a maille-shirt and helmet, would have been the one enjoying far fewer restrictions on his mobility and agility, at the cost of less protection.

To be fair though, a spear, naginata, or other pole-arm would always be the warrior's first choice for battlefield conditions, including the samurai. And samurai would often have carried a larger sword more effective for the battlefield than the standard

It is an interesting aberration of martial history that shields don't seem to have seen much use in Japan. I attribute it to how warfare developed in Japan. The Samurai began as a mounted-archer...by the time he became a dismounted fighter, his armor had developed to the point to defend him sufficiently well and make two-handed weaponry more desirable. You see the same progression in Europe, shields becoming smaller and less used as the knights began to be covered head-to-toe with maille and plate defenses were added, simultaneously two-handed polearms and swords with a better chance to attack the new armor become more common.


The weight and mobility restrictions of plate-style armor is a bit overdone, tho. Keep in mind that mail weighs directly on the shoulders. It gets heavy the longer you wear it (I've recently taken to wearing mail at my longsword class. It DEFINITELY takes a toll). When you first put it on you're like, "Hey, this isn't so bad." Then twenty minutes later you're like "God, I'm dying!" A LOT has to do with your physical conditioning, but mail WILL eventually slow you down.

The issue with plate was NOT restrictions to mobility, or even weight. Plate was heavier, but the weight was evenly distributed because it strapped TO the parts it protected. The problem with plate was the HEAT. It gets dammed hot in there which tires you out much faster.

As far as weaponry, if the program had treated the shield PROPERLY (see my post on the other thread about how that shield SHOULD have been constructed) then even a heavy weapon like the kanabo would have been hard-pressed to get past the Viking's defenses. It wouldn't be breakage that would render the shield useless. It would be a big, heavy spear or javelin getting stuck in it and weighing it down! Germanic warriors even used a variant of the Roman angon SPECIFICALLY for this purpose: extended iron head that bent on impact to prevent extraction and hacking it off. The limited utility of the much-vaunted katana would be crippling to the Samurai in this case, because while the longsword could be used to hook around the shield (short-edge cuts, hooking with the guard and pommel, etc) the katana is far less versatile.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 05:19:36 PM »
Sax dont forget that a warrior would have put that chain shirt on every morning and not taken it off till bedtime. They would be so accustomed to the weight that bare chested they would feel unaturaly light footed and out of balance.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 06:57:36 PM »
Sax dont forget that a warrior would have put that chain shirt on every morning and not taken it off till bedtime. They would be so accustomed to the weight that bare chested they would feel unaturaly light footed and out of balance.

Hate to disagree Mech, but this is actually an exaggeration. A professional fighting man would be in tip-top shape and quite able to execute his martial art in armor, but if you will remember even Harald Hardrada and his men were caught at Stanford bridge *without* their mail shirts. If you doff your mail shirt while on a march through potentially hostile territory, you probably also don't wear continually it while tending the cattle or otherwise going about your daily business.

Sax: I've had a mail shirt on a few times myself. I agree about the comfort factor, but still find it ironic that the producers of the show stereotyped the Viking as slow, ponderous, and over-burdened when in fact the Samurai was wearing the heavier kit.

I find the Apache/Gladiator, Ninja/Spartan, Pirate/Knight match-ups fatally flawed, they are apples-to-oranges comparisons. In every case you are taking generalists who train many skills *besides* combat with hand weapons and putting them in close combat with specialists whose main raison d'etre IS fighting with hand weapons, and who are better armed and equipped for this specific task, THEN predicting that the guy who is better trained and equipped for this particular situation will loose. That is like taking someone who has a good all-around MA score, bomber, gv, attack, and is a passably good pick-and-run fighter stick, then putting them in the DA with someone like Batfink and predicting that the latter player will come out on the short end.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 10:51:24 PM »
triple posts are rare and beautifull things. I actualy blame my crappy internet for 1/3 of my post count here.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 11:08:41 PM by mechanic »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 10:56:07 PM »
argh
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 11:07:57 PM by mechanic »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2009, 11:07:07 PM »
Should have been more specific there than just 'warriors', sorry. I was refering only about Danish raiders in Wessex around the time of Alfred the Great, very much what the definition of a viking would be, except smart, spiritual and cunning as well as strong and fearless.
 I have learnt a little of how they lived and was taught that the chain shirt was worn at all waking hours to accustom the sword Dane to the weight. They would not feel at ease without the comforting weight. Movements would take time to get used to the lack of resistance.
 Obviously i am no historian.

I also agree with your premise about the match up flaws, but enjoyed the testing sessions alot for all weapons.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2009, 01:48:38 AM »
I would put my money on Miyamoto Musashi,

if they had the samurai wearing heaver armor they are way off :rofl     not that I lived back then and know 100%, but as far as I know Samurai armor was mostly bamboo.

I personally believe the Japanese Samurai, were the greatest warriors of all time, Miyamoto was the greatest of them all.

I also think Bruce Lee read his book "the Book Of Five Rings" and built his "jute kune do" from that.  (That is a great read BTW.)
The dedication of the Oriental people, in all that they do is amazing.   


Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2009, 05:08:53 AM »
I would put my money on Miyamoto Musashi,

if they had the samurai wearing heaver armor they are way off :rofl     not that I lived back then and know 100%, but as far as I know Samurai armor was mostly bamboo.


This is something of a myth.  Rest assured that bamboo would make a poor armor in terms of protection offered compared to the burden it would impose.  Japanese armor typically consisted of small iron plates laced together and lacquered against rust, gradually evolving to include larger pieces of plate. The scale-type armor is somewhat heavier than either maille or European plate in relation to area of the body covered, the plate armor is approximately equivalent. It seems to have been about as effective at rendering the cutting edge of the sword impotent as European armor was...interestingly, I've seen demonstrations Koryu techniques that are similar to Medieval European sword arts in their penchant for techniques for attacking relatively poorly protected/vulnerable areas (counter-striking at hands or exposed legs, thrusting for the exposed face/eyes, armpit, elbow gap, groin, etc). This is distinct from the disemboweling/head splitting/decapitating they like to depict in movies but which in reality would only result in ineffectively striking the most heavily protected areas of the body.



I personally believe the Japanese Samurai, were the greatest warriors of all time, Miyamoto was the greatest of them all.
I also think Bruce Lee read his book "the Book Of Five Rings" and built his "jute kune do" from that.  (That is a great read BTW.)
The dedication of the Oriental people, in all that they do is amazing.   

This is also something of a myth. When you get past Hollywood, there is nothing particularly superior about Japanese weapon or unarmed martial arts...or really anybody's martial arts, you see the same techniques over and over again. Convergent evolution. Longsword and katana technique is sometimes eerily similar, but it is logical that two peoples trying to solve the same problem (how to kill an opponent with a two-handed sword, in and out of armor) would come up with similar solutions. And when you look you end up seeing similar things in Fillipino martial art, Chinese martial art, etc.

 One thing about the Medieval Japanese warrior culture though is that they were insular, isolated, and *never* had much chance to either clash or cross-pollinate with the warriors of other lands. A Medieval Japanese army faced outsiders exactly once, in a battle with the invading Mongols, in which the Japanese forces were driven from the field. Japan was saved from Mongol domination by a quirk of the weather. Of course, one great benefit of this isolationism and Japanese preservationism is that the martial arts revolving around their obsolete weapons have been more fully preserved into the modern era than those of many other cultures.

Bruce Lee based his personal fighting style which he presents in "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" upon three principle sources: Wing Tsun Kung-Fu, Western boxing, and Western fencing, the latter which Lee found so fascinating and useful that the name for his martial art, "Way of the Intercepting Fist", refers to the stop-thrust concept from fencing. Musashi is claimed by some to have been inspired to devise his method of wielding the katana and wakizashi by watching Portuguese sailors fence with sword and dagger, though this is impossible to prove either way. The thing that is for certain is that his book of Five Rings is highly critical of martial art in practiced in Japan at the time and Musashi seems to have had his own ideas. All we really know about Musashi's greatness is that he probably won a large number of single combats, but the same thing can be said Fiore de Liberi or Johannes Liechtenauer.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2009, 12:04:41 PM »
It also sounds like he's SERIOUSLY overestimating the katana, which has an extremely limited utility as a slicing blade and would be a very poor choice against a heavily armored opponent. For armored fighting especially the edge would go towards someone trained in and weilding a longsword. A point designed for thrusting (curved blades are VERY awkward for accurate thrusts) combined with half-sword techniques allows for precision strikes at gaps in the plate. Add in use of the pommel and guard in both strikes and grappling/hooking, and the longsword has a clear advantage in harnischfechten.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.