Author Topic: The Deadliest Warrior  (Read 2203 times)

Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2009, 09:47:46 PM »
...from at least the Viking period onward, European swords can typically be flexed at least 30 degrees or so out of line and return to true. This allows these swords to be thinner in cross-section than is typical for a

No kidding on the flexing. My practice sword is like a spring if I strike the flat out near the tip. :D

The estoc is an interesting weapon, basically a longsword specialized for harnischfechten. Very rigid, very narrow blade. For those who can't picture it:



Definitely limited in utility, and I'd prefer the versatility of having a good cutting edge, but a great example of form and function.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Sikboy

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2009, 10:36:49 PM »
sharpness irrelevant? 

ok I'm done, not gonna argue with stupid any more, dragging me down to there level and beating me with experience.





But Ink, you never did actually argue. You stated an unsupported opinion, then went all girlyman when the discussion moved forward without you. I mean, I didn't go back and re-check the thread, but you  never actually advanced a real argument did you?

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Offline Motherland

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2009, 10:54:14 PM »
The estoc is an interesting weapon, basically a longsword specialized for harnischfechten. Very rigid, very narrow blade. For those who can't picture it:

(Image removed from quote.)

Definitely limited in utility, and I'd prefer the versatility of having a good cutting edge, but a great example of form and function.
Very sexy, though!

Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2009, 11:54:02 PM »
Very sexy, though!

That's nice, but here's a real beauty.

Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Motherland

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2009, 12:11:21 AM »
Nice :)
Are you part of some sort of club or organization, like that ARMA you mentioned earlier? Or do you only collect swords and research European fighting styles?

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2009, 12:27:39 AM »
Ink, I know you're an okay guy, but it is you and Anodizer who are arguing from a position of *profound* ignorance regarding this particular subject matter. It is not really you guys' fault, since between pop culture, the Renn Faire/SCA scene, and poor historians, there is a lot of BS floating around on this rather obscure subject.

Suffice to say, when I compared preserved/quality replica European cutting swords against their Japanese counterparts, the weights were similar, with the European swords actually being somewhat lighter in relation to their length. It is not surprising that swords designed for powerful cuts will have a similar mass, a cutting sword must have just enough blade to support cutting geometry, without adding undue mass. If you think about it, you will realize the idea that any culture was stupid enough to make inordinately heavy swords is absurd. Not only would excess weight decrease the sword's maneuverability, but velocity is a component in the force of your attacks. Too much weight would prevent the warrior from accelerating his sword effectively under realistic condition, actually reducing striking force.

Metallurgically speaking, European swords have a resilliency that most traditional Nihonto lack. If you have poor edge alignment while practicing tamashigiri, you can easily end with a bent sword. Some very old school dojos keep a device known as a "sword" straightener on the wall.... By comparison, from at least the Viking period onward, European swords can typically be flexed at least 30 degrees or so out of line and return to true. This allows these swords to be thinner in cross-section than is typical for a traditional Japanese sword.

How sharp were European swords? From studying the techniques of the European teachers of fence from the 14th-16th centuries, it is apparent that many of the techniques they taught for use against unarmored opposition were relatively quick, light strikes and slices that would require a decent edge. The idea that Europeans used a "blunt" sword because of armor is wrong. Sword-edge sharpness is irrelevant when attacking iron and steel armor, you are not going to cut it to any effective extent. (Full plate armor is such effective protection against sword strikes that re-enactors today engage in essentially full-contact sword fights wearing the stuff.) However not every opponent on the battlefield was armored head-to-toe, and against leather, cloth, flesh, and bone, edge sharpness is *not* irrelevant. The only sort of "edgeless" type of European sword I know of is a rare, specialized type called an estoc that was forced with a narrow, diamond cross-section and specifically used as a sort of short spear/leverage tool against fully armored opposition. But as I say, this type is rare, understandable considering you can execute the same types of techniques with a more standard longsword.

What is their cutting potential? The ARMA used to have a video of a member removing the head of a freshly-killed deer with a single, one-handed strike from an Oakeshott type XIV, a typical blade-form from around 1300, pictured below. The part that stuck in my mind was that it was actually a less than full force, "pulled" blow because the tester was being careful not to strike the floor! Preserved examples of this type of sword are typically around 28'' in the blade and weigh in between 2-2.5 lbs. It is something of a "compromise" design between cutting and thrusting, and the taper gives it a very pleasant balance.

(Image removed from quote.)


trust me I know about swords, it is a passion of mine.
I have studied sword making, and the history of them in all cultures. I love the sword whether it be a Katana, claymore, bastard, two hander, hand and half,cutlass,  whatever I love them alllllllllllllllll, but the Katana is my Favorite.

I was gonna buy the Damascus Viking sword "Godfrey" held it in my hand, It was beautiful selling for $300, instead I picked the "miyamoto" Katana, it is just something about the Samurai and there history that I love.  like I said I own the Katana by Paul Chen called the "tiger" do a search on it, it is absolutely amazing around 1800 layers, clay was used in the tempering proses, so the edge is extremely hard while the back is soft, the edge registers around 60 on the rockwell scale,while the back is about a 40. the Hamon line is awesome.  real ray skin, double pinned Tsuka, iron tsuba  sick...



  
But Ink, you never did actually argue. You stated an unsupported opinion, then went all girlyman when the discussion moved forward without you. I mean, I didn't go back and re-check the thread, but you  never actually advanced a real argument did you?

-Sik
 

 :rofl :rofl :rofl          girlyman,           :rofl :rofl :rofl


gotta love the security of the intardnet.      



Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2009, 12:34:52 AM »
I'm learning longsword and have recently started I.33 as well with a local group here in St. Louis. Our main resource is Ringeck's manuscript, ~50 years after Lichtenaur so he follows very closely in that tradition. Our instructor actually moved out of town literally the week after I joined so we've been working with him long distance using film of our practice and sparring sessions and occasional sessions in-person when he makes it back in.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2009, 01:21:10 AM »
That is fine Ink, it was unsubstantiated and easily disprovable statements about superiority/inferiority that moved me to post. Like I say, it is an obscure subject, with lots of wrong ideas about.

Take for instance, the hammering together and folding of pieces of metal to make a sword. It was done at an early stage of steel-making in all cultures. It is, however, a process made necessary by a lack of furnaces hot enough to make large, homogeneous billets of steel from which to forge swords. So the various small bits of steel/steely iron that could be produced had to be forge-welded together and folded until the layering is fine enough that the metal is for all intents and purposes homogeneous in quality. It is a complex, almost mystical process, requiring great skill, and a great amount of time, and a true artist as the craftsman.

It is also unnecessary if your iron-working technology *has* progressed to the point where you can easily produce single pieces of steel large enough to make as sword from, as was the case the in Europe as early as the 14th century. A sword made from a single homogeneous piece of steel at least as strong, quality control is more precise, and is far, far cheaper to make. This last point might interest you Ink, you lean libertarian politically IIRC. You see, some historians cite the relative abundance of iron resources and the relative cheapness of edge weapons as a reason that European commoners were harder to effectively disarm than their Oriental counterparts, a circumstance which arguably led to the various traditions that ultimately gave rise to Classic Liberal notion of the right to keep and bear arms.

A more practical moral to this story might be that for a "use" sword, cutter or practice weapon, you will get just as much performance out of well-made weapon of simple steel as an outrageously expensive "Damascus" type or what have you.




trust me I know about swords, it is a passion of mine.
I have studied sword making, and the history of them in all cultures. I love the sword whether it be a Katana, claymore, bastard, two hander, hand and half,cutlass,  whatever I love them alllllllllllllllll, but the Katana is my Favorite.

I was gonna buy the Damascus Viking sword "Godfrey" held it in my hand, It was beautiful selling for $300, instead I picked the "miyamoto" Katana, it is just something about the Samurai and there history that I love.  like I said I own the Katana by Paul Chen called the "tiger" do a search on it, it is absolutely amazing around 1800 layers, clay was used in the tempering proses, so the edge is extremely hard while the back is soft, the edge registers around 60 on the rockwell scale,while the back is about a 40. the Hamon line is awesome.  real ray skin, double pinned Tsuka, iron tsuba  sick...
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 01:23:01 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2009, 02:42:13 AM »
That is fine Ink, it was unsubstantiated and easily disprovable statements about superiority/inferiority that moved me to post. Like I say, it is an obscure subject, with lots of wrong ideas about.

Take for instance, the hammering together and folding of pieces of metal to make a sword. It was done at an early stage of steel-making in all cultures. It is, however, a process made necessary by a lack of furnaces hot enough to make large, homogeneous billets of steel from which to forge swords. So the various small bits of steel/steely iron that could be produced had to be forge-welded together and folded until the layering is fine enough that the metal is for all intents and purposes homogeneous in quality. It is a complex, almost mystical process, requiring great skill, and a great amount of time, and a true artist as the craftsman.

It is also unnecessary if your iron-working technology *has* progressed to the point where you can easily produce single pieces of steel large enough to make as sword from, as was the case the in Europe as early as the 14th century. A sword made from a single homogeneous piece of steel at least as strong, quality control is more precise, and is far, far cheaper to make. This last point might interest you Ink, you lean libertarian politically IIRC. You see, some historians cite the relative abundance of iron resources and the relative cheapness of edge weapons as a reason that European commoners were harder to effectively disarm than their Oriental counterparts, a circumstance which arguably led to the various traditions that ultimately gave rise to Classic Liberal notion of the right to keep and bear arms.

A more practical moral to this story might be that for a "use" sword, cutter or practice weapon, you will get just as much performance out of well-made weapon of simple steel as an outrageously expensive "Damascus" type or what have you.





you are correct, but the Hammering of the steel, the folding  was to get impurities out of the iron,      the sword I have was made of ASSAB-K120C powder steel, supposedly some of the highest quality steel out there, so yes the folding is only for aesthetics and man do they work :aok

check this out  samurai vs Knight

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
,
very good points. and yes I read the whole thing :lol

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2009, 07:23:09 AM »
Yup Ink, that's written by the shortish guy with the bastard sword I posted videos of. Good writeup.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2009, 09:32:42 AM »
Clements can really fill up the pages when he gets the wind in his sails. :D

BTW, I dug up this article on Toshishiro Obata's "world record" helmet cut as an illustration of what a sword is likely to do, or rather, not do, to armor. The setup was an *authentic* kabuto setting on top of a stump being struck as forcibly as possible by an extremely powerful, expert swordsman, and the result was this....




...a gash, that while *record-setting* at 13 centimeters, would likely not have even penetrated deeply enough to cut through the padding of the helmet and into the warrior's head. Armor works.


you are correct, but the Hammering of the steel, the folding  was to get impurities out of the iron,      the sword I have was made of ASSAB-K120C powder steel, supposedly some of the highest quality steel out there, so yes the folding is only for aesthetics and man do they work :aok
(Image removed from quote.)
check this out  samurai vs Knight

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
,
very good points. and yes I read the whole thing :lol
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2009, 10:33:11 AM »
A LOT of people forget the armor wasn't just being worn over their clothes. I don't know about in Japan, but at least in Europe soldiers wore a good deal of padding under their armor. The typical gambeson worn under mail was made of something like 50 layers of linen, occasionally with a leather outer shell and lining. This was NECESSARY, because while the armor could stop the cut that energy still has to go SOMEWHERE, and blunt-force trauma could be just as lethal as being cloven in two (whether stopped by armor or not, the sword STILL puts a lot of energy into a very focused point on impact which isn't good for your organs). They also wore an arming cap beneath their helm, and some helms themselves were heavily padded with linings of linen stuffed with straw.

That's one of the things I loved about Kingdom of Heaven. It's one of the first movies I've seen where they made a REAL effort at accuracy in Western Medieval European equipment and fighting styles (I LOVED the half-sword and hilt strikes they had Balian doing with his proto-longsword).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2009, 02:05:18 PM »
A LOT of people forget the armor wasn't just being worn over their clothes. I don't know about in Japan, but at least in Europe soldiers wore a good deal of padding under their armor. The typical gambeson worn under mail was made of something like 50 layers of linen, occasionally with a leather outer shell and lining. This was NECESSARY, because while the armor could stop the cut that energy still has to go SOMEWHERE, and blunt-force trauma could be just as lethal as being cloven in two (whether stopped by armor or not, the sword STILL puts a lot of energy into a very focused point on impact which isn't good for your organs). They also wore an arming cap beneath their helm, and some helms themselves were heavily padded with linings of linen stuffed with straw.

That's one of the things I loved about Kingdom of Heaven. It's one of the first movies I've seen where they made a REAL effort at accuracy in Western Medieval European equipment and fighting styles (I LOVED the half-sword and hilt strikes they had Balian doing with his proto-longsword).


great movie

Offline Sikboy

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2009, 04:53:53 PM »


gotta love the security of the intardnet.      




What? You don't think I'd say that if you were standing here? You clearly don't know me, I've gotten my bellybutton kicked for less :)

But thank you for bringing something to the discussion, this is turning into a very informative thread.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline morfiend

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2009, 05:43:08 PM »
Ink,you need to check out the Japanese national museum,they have priceless Katana's on exhibit


 I've been a sword fancier for many years,Paul chen's pieces are nice low cost swords.Before you go off about the cost check out what "real" katana's cost,near impossible to find for under $5000.
My brother inlaw was living in japan for a few years and I'd asked him if he would find me a "real" katana,which he did for a measly $10,000USD.... :O Nedless to say I declined.Besides my wife wont let me play with sharp things anymore. :o

 This debate will undoubtedly go on for years again I say apples and oranges,swords evolved to meet the needs of the regions they were used in.Myself I see the beauty in all swords,the craftmanship on some examples are simply beyond comprehension.Both European and Oriental blacksmiths had their secrets and applied them as best as they could,given the technology available to them.

BTW that's a real beauty Sax and Ink the Hamon on the tiger is a wonderful example.

 :salute