My god would you please quit with the arena crap Hitech!

[SlapShot]

I think the slum'd out arena slapshot alluded to was the smaller one....no one there...slums, etc...

Nope ... "slum'd out" meant that there were lots of people, the arena became "impersonal", the conversation on 200 was filled mostly with anger ... which I think was what was driving the "new" players away.

Ren ... I was getting real close to canceling my account due to what the "single" arena environment had to offer after 6 years of playing this game. For me, personally, the whole split was a godsend ... I love the MW arena (best balanced plane set in the whole game) and if nothing is going on there ... I move on over to the Blue arena ... the numbers in Blue remind me of my AH1 days, where you can get into good fights, and not have to fight off 6 of your own countrymen for a kill or constantly have to fly into 6 v 1 engagements.

[Belial]

Is possible, but I do not believe it would see many people. Assuming TT means tank town?

Hitech I believe 33.33% of the current players would be tickled pink if a 3rd map was added.  33.3% may not seem like much, but this would make the Orange arena less congested and provide yet another alternative to the Blue arena.

May I suggest Ndisles or Ozkansas which are both well know tank town maps.  Both of these maps would allow constant Air battles as well as Land battles.

You could call it Late War Red and try it for a short period and see the response from the community.  

<Salute>

[Waffle]

Think of it like drinking and going out on the town
One is a big dance club - loud music, fancy drinks and lots of eye-candy. It's packed wall to wall.
Everybody meets up with all their friends there - it's the place to be.

The other is a little dive bar -  There's not a lot going on there, for now.

So you go out on the town and hit the popular big bar. Dale the doorman says "hello" and lets you in. You get in and it's cool just being there.
as the night goes on, it gets crowded, drunk idiots stumble into you, fights break out, it's hot in there, music is too loud, the waitress is MIA, and the bar is 12 deep.
Takes 45 mins to get a drink. Not much fun now. You step out for a minute for some fresh air and then try to go back in. Dale the doorman says "Sorry, we're over fire code..you can't go in. You can wait in line or there's the bar across the street."

So you head over to the small bar across the street. It's quiet - nice song on the jukebox. Bartender gives you a cold beer.
you get to chill and relax. Pretty soon your friends tire of the big bar or can't get in because of fire code and come over. It's fun and more people come in and it turns into
a good time. There's elbow room, everyone has a seat and drinks are flowing. The place starts filling up in and you realize it's actually a pretty fun place.

It's better than standing outside heckling a doorman who won't let you in.

[Kazaa]

WAFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFLE ! /HUG!

[DMBEAR]

Hitech I believe 33.33% of the current players would be tickled pink if a 3rd map was added.  33.3% may not seem like much, but this would make the Orange arena less congested and provide yet another alternative to the Blue arena.

May I suggest Ndisles or Ozkansas which are both well know tank town maps.  Both of these maps would allow constant Air battles as well as Land battles.

You could call it Late War Red and try it for a short period and see the response from the community.  

<Salute>

Belial, Why not start a new thread.  Hitech has validated it somewhat.

I think its worth a trial, and I think it would at least be interesting to hear the pros and cons...Cue Clapton.

"Heavy metal" arena maybe?   

[DMBEAR]

You step out for a minute for some fresh air and then try to go back in. Dale the doorman says "Sorry, we're over fire code..you can't go in. You can wait in line or there's the bar across the street."

So you head over to the small bar across the street. It's quiet - nice song on the jukebox. Bartender gives you a cold beer.
you get to chill and relax. Pretty soon your friends tire of the big bar or can't get in because of fire code and come over. It's fun and more people come in and it turns into
a good time. There's elbow room, everyone has a seat and drinks are flowing. The place starts filling up in and you realize it's actually a pretty fun place.

It's better than standing outside heckling a doorman who won't let you in.

All good, unless the place you were in was full of hot chicks and the dive bar is named Sausage Haus. 

Wait, I see youre an Aggie...still might be fun in that case. 

[DamnedRen]

Why do some people prefer Blue ? ... They like the "numbers" that are in that arena ... Why are there "numbers" in Blue ? ... because Blue catches the fallout from Orange and, for the most part, some who are forced to use Blue end up staying there for the night because they do/might get involved in the conflict and choose to stay for the night.

Which is exactly my point. BTW, most folks I see coming into Orange were merely waiting for a slot to open and left Blue when it did.
Don't get me wrong a few stay and do enjoy it. But if that was the case, why not "chose it" and go fly there for the night? That does not happen much.

In the meantime, how long before someone, who wants to fly Orange, gets tired of the hassle and exits the game? I'd sure hate to see that happen. I wonder if an exit poll might help the Company. Something like;

We are sorry to see you leave. We enjoyed your company in our game and hoped it was everything you thought it would be.
As such we ask you answer a simple exit questionaire that might help us help others to enjoy the game. All answers are strictly confidential.
Please check the box which best fits;

( ) RL is getting in the way.
( ) A job change forces me to stop for a while
( ) I just couldn't come to grips with how to dogfight
( ) I tried but couldn't get into the arenas where I wanted to fly
( ) Too much grief on 200
( ) My dad stopped my allowance
( ) I can't afford the equipment to fly
( ) My two weeks was up
( ) No one would help me
( ) Arenas were one big trash talking, slum
( ) Answer in your own words here:
blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
blah blah

Thanks again for being with AH2. We wish you well and hope we might see you again.

Sometimes people put up their reasons why on the forum boards. They usually get slammed by the typical forum denizens.
The real question is how do you know what'd really broke if all you have to go by is "we tried this and numbers went down, so we're trying this" If it brought more people to AH2 was it the commercials? Word of mouth? Someone at work? In the TA we find all kinds of reasons. It's never been asked of us to do so but wee could ask the simple question and report it. Something like  
"Welcome to AH2. You're gonna find it's a fun game so let's get started". BTW, what made you come over to AH2?"
"Well, I flew a sim 8 years ago and I just found this one. I thought Id give it a try?"
reply, "Really how'd ya find us?" blah blah blah. I'm sure you get my drift on this.

Heck, they get a 2 week free trial, all it should cost is "Hi,how'd you hear about us?" on sign up or do we do that now? I haven't signed up in years.....

My thought is people come and people go. Thank em for their participation. It would sure make it easier to tailor the game to the needs and wants of people. You can always learn something. Even from someone who's on their way out.

I was kinda hoping this kind of discussion was possible. New idea's to be thought of and discarded as required.

CM#1

[fudgums]

Better fights in Blue IMO

[Penguin]

Kazzaa, see the forum posting rules

Now back to my past

I think that it would be a good idea to have a new arena.  It could be used as a test-bed for new ideas, (B-29,submarines, nukes, etc., just to calm the crazed noobs for a while )  But there is the problem of the fact that so many are in Orange for no good reason, and too few are left in Blue.  I think that there should be .1 perks taken off of your sortie's score for each person over 400 in Orange, and .1 added for every person over 100 in Blue, but the Rule that applies for orange also applies to blue, to prevent farming, and just moving the slum.

This way, we don't have a mob in either, and neither arena is left to be a ghost town.  But, anyway, +1 to you idea 999000  

[DamnedRen]

Nope ... "slum'd out" meant that there were lots of people, the arena became "impersonal", the conversation on 200 was filled mostly with anger ... which I think was what was driving the "new" players away.

Ren ... I was getting real close to canceling my account due to what the "single" arena environment had to offer after 6 years of playing this game. For me, personally, the whole split was a godsend ... I love the MW arena (best balanced plane set in the whole game) and if nothing is going on there ... I move on over to the Blue arena ... the numbers in Blue remind me of my AH1 days, where you can get into good fights, and not have to fight off 6 of your own countrymen for a kill or constantly have to fly into 6 v 1 engagements.

SlapShot,

I'd hate to see you leave and hope you hang around for a long time. The question becomes is it really all that bad? Times change. This isn't AH1 anymore. There are more people.  You say you love the MW. Has anyone forced you out due cap limits? You also say you like the Blue arena because it reminds you of old AH1. You don't like Orange so it has no effect on you at all because you choose not to fly there for your given reasons. There's number to fudgums...he prefers Blue also so Orange is not effecting him either.

Many folks get up in Orange and find lots of 1v1, 2v2's, etc. and enjoy their flying there. To begrudge them doing that is different than them saying MW stinks and Im gonna close my account because of it. They fly elsewhere and have fun just like you do.

CM#1

[fudgums]

 There's number to fudgums...he prefers Blue also so Orange is not effecting him either.
Better fights in Blue, but friends are in orange. I prefer AvA either way, there are no word to the fights there but great


Many folks get up in Orange and find lots of 1v1, 2v2's, etc. and enjoy their flying there.
I would plead the fifth

[moot]

Ironic for me to say such a thing, but Ren, your posts are too long.  Or that and I lose patience reading them, somehow.

I think the slum'd out arena slapshot alluded to was the smaller one....no one there...slums, etc...

Wrong.  I can't help but wonder how good your handle on what others' arguments are when you misinterpret such a clearly said, simple thing.

I'm the last guy too ridicule...remember? CM#1?

Extraneous levity and I'm not sure you aren't.

Ref 60 player arena, one sided....isn't that the complaint on another thread right now? 20 people up? 19 are in one country?

It's not the crux of the argument.  It just supports the point that you're worse off in a small arena with uneven odds than in a large arena; but that's not the point >>>>>>>>>>>>> They are both bad alternatives.  

How do you cap the country? Make squadies fly against each other? Wait something about perk farming also.... Ah well that really is another story...

Not the point.  It's part of the story, which you failed to understand.  You're counter-arguing a point I'm not making.

ENY enforcement is not a part of the conversation but since you mention it take a look at how many guys flock to the short country to be able to go find good fights? They are not necessarily there for perk planes but to have fun fights. Take another look and see how many peeps really change sides just because their side is currently short of flyers. Granted, there are a few that change so they get a chance to take a ride they can't afford but that is not the majority. IMHO side balancing is somewhat a waste of time but since it doesn't affect play so much no one really cares too much.

This is missing the point, but I'll refute while im at it: What is the alternative to ENY as it is?  No ENY balancing incentive?  We'd have totally lopsided odds.  Do you see the point being made?  This ENY tangent is on topic because the argument I'm supporting with this example is that players aren't perfectly reliable as positive trend setters. Let them do it all as they please and they'll go for the path of least resistance.  The game degrades. The game closes.  
In bold: those few are enough. The system works.
Underlined: Support your assertion that it's a "Waste of time", and suggest a better alternative. Failing that, it's the least worst alternative and therefore the best one, the one to have.

Yer also going off topic with Killshooter, etc. For kill shooter to be correct there should be NO IMPACT to friendly planes, including the guy who inadvertently flew through the bullet stream of someone because he was in such a hurry to pick the kill. Look back over some topics on the forums (I prolly can't find em cause Im a clueless moron) ref killshooter. It really isn't that difficult to fly thru some other guys stream and thereby "killshoot" him. That's as about as realistic as HO model. Come on, in RL, which I thought this game tried to emulate somewhat, if a guy ran through someone else stream he died. Not the guy who pulled the trigger. It understandable we need killshooter but artificially inducing kills that really should be the other way around is only good for a laugh, unless you're the guy die'n. The guys doing it on purpose sure are laughing. Makes ya wonder if anyone ever reviews the films with a drink in their hands are spillin their drinks for thinking that one up. How funny is that!!!  Come on now, they can do better than that!

Point missed again. KS's another example of having to find some compromise between making channeling players down the right paths of gameplay and not being too intrusive on their freedom of choosing how to play. What do you suggest, no killshooter?  What do you suggest, uncapped arenas?  The game has and will grow into a single arena slum.  The only positive scenario I see is enough people being fed up with the slum arena, and going to the other one.. But as with "the few people that switch because of ENY / to help balance things out", it'd be only a small fraction of the players, and the main out-take for players would be that Aces High is just a big slum arena. They'd log off and call it quits before making an effort to improve things on their own.  It would be "HTC's fault".  It would be "not worth 15 bucks".  

Again off topic but side switching times limits will work...if the guys ain't over in the EW perk farmin    I guess no one thought of that. I guess if it limits perk farming for war wins but it's ok to perk in another arena then so be it.

Idem, point missed.  It's another unavoidable safeguard to keep players channeled away from undesirable trends.  Spying, etc.  An instance given as supporting evidence that players aren't reliable as keepers of game quality.  The path of least resistance is their main trend when they're left unchecked.  Car bombing was another.  Runway ackstaring another. Etc.

Back on topic. I've been out of town for the past week so I haven't seen cap numbers but I suspect it's more like 100-300 with an occasional 100-400. I can't remember the last time I saw an arena cap of 100-500 but hey I'm just CM#1. 100-500 would be a good start though .

I'm all ears to any evidence that HT hasn't been telling the truth.

Note: times change, people change, equipment changes, thought processes change. What happened 4-5 years ago might not be what's happening now. Once tried, always died?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Prove the trend wrong and I'm sure HTC will be glad to give it a try.  Right now though, that's a flimsy argument.

If I remember right there was a big push to create a huge multiplayer arena with tons of AI planes and earning rank. Kinda like a real aerial war game with missions. We even had a contest to name it. What's relevant is and I gotta dig back in my memory was that we'd have a 1000 person huge arena with missions. BUT! There would also be some of the original arenas for those that still wanted it.  When I look back and see arena caps it makes me wonder that it would or wouldn't have worked. 2 countries? Kinda like FSO. Every night?
In old days gone by it was fun to up a mission deep into enemy territory. When we finished everyone had a good laugh and we all went back to dogfighting. key words...back to dogfighting... I'm not here to say the idea was wrong. It was a great idea. But after the arena caps IMHO I'm not so sure it would last.

I dunno how you're tying the two together. They're separate things entirely. One is an arena that appeals to the more realistic, historical crowd, who buy into e.g. Il2's coop stuff with icons turned off, attrition warfare, the full blown wartime pilot experience.    The other arena is an unrestricted air combat setup where the the only premise is duking it out with the historical machines.  Different target audiences entirely and independent of the MA pop cap dilemma.

[The Fugitive]

Herd mentality dictates that you are going to have more fun in the populated arena. You are also pushing that same idea when you say open up the cap. The problem is HTC has the numbers to back them up when they say that one big arena IS NOT MORE FUN. YOU may think its more fun, but the MAJORITY don't and HTC numbers prove that due to the lack of growth they had. Once they made the split they began to grow again.

So the "public" THINKS they know what they want, but when they get it it kills the game. When HTC gives them what he KNOWS they need, the game grows. Seems pretty easy to follow to me.

[SlapShot]

Which is exactly my point. BTW, most folks I see coming into Orange were merely waiting for a slot to open and left Blue when it did.
Don't get me wrong a few stay and do enjoy it. But if that was the case, why not "chose it" and go fly there for the night? That does not happen much.

In the meantime, how long before someone, who wants to fly Orange, gets tired of the hassle and exits the game? I'd sure hate to see that happen. I wonder if an exit poll might help the Company. Something like;

We are sorry to see you leave. We enjoyed your company in our game and hoped it was everything you thought it would be.
As such we ask you answer a simple exit questionaire that might help us help others to enjoy the game. All answers are strictly confidential.
Please check the box which best fits;

( ) RL is getting in the way.
( ) A job change forces me to stop for a while
( ) I just couldn't come to grips with how to dogfight
( ) I tried but couldn't get into the arenas where I wanted to fly
( ) Too much grief on 200
( ) My dad stopped my allowance
( ) I can't afford the equipment to fly
( ) My two weeks was up
( ) No one would help me
( ) Arenas were one big trash talking, slum
( ) Answer in your own words here:
blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
blah blah

Thanks again for being with AH2. We wish you well and hope we might see you again.

Sometimes people put up their reasons why on the forum boards. They usually get slammed by the typical forum denizens.
The real question is how do you know what'd really broke if all you have to go by is "we tried this and numbers went down, so we're trying this" If it brought more people to AH2 was it the commercials? Word of mouth? Someone at work? In the TA we find all kinds of reasons. It's never been asked of us to do so but wee could ask the simple question and report it. Something like  
"Welcome to AH2. You're gonna find it's a fun game so let's get started". BTW, what made you come over to AH2?"
"Well, I flew a sim 8 years ago and I just found this one. I thought Id give it a try?"
reply, "Really how'd ya find us?" blah blah blah. I'm sure you get my drift on this.

Heck, they get a 2 week free trial, all it should cost is "Hi,how'd you hear about us?" on sign up or do we do that now? I haven't signed up in years.....

My thought is people come and people go. Thank em for their participation. It would sure make it easier to tailor the game to the needs and wants of people. You can always learn something. Even from someone who's on their way out.

I was kinda hoping this kind of discussion was possible. New idea's to be thought of and discarded as required.

CM#1

I think that you are making an assumption that HTC does not do exit polls/emails. We don't know if they check each account that is canceled, see that they canceled within a month or so after their 2 week free trial was up and sent them an email asking "WHY" ... I am assuming that they do something along these lines ... I know I would.

For some reason, and probably not with malice, you keep insinuating that HTC made this "split" decision without doing their homework. I have seen just about every post, from day 1, about this "split" and have seen every response by HT and Pyro, and I am completely comfortable that they did do their homework before making such a decision.

You have been around long enough to know that HT does not make decisions on a whim ... In the 7 years I have been here, each and every decision that I have seen them make is very carefully thought out before it is implemented ... including this one.

[Edbert]

Wow, take a year and a half off and the same argument is still underway. And some say things never stay the same around here too