Luftwaffe Training Clinic 5/4/09 Films

[MjTalon]

Well i would like to say I am truly grateful and glad alot of people came out to the clinic last night. It was trly an honor gentlemen, i hope you all enjoyed and learned something new.  Films below as well as my Fw190 Training Folder for those who wish to find a starting ground for the 190.

LW Clinich

109 Section Film
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http://www.mediafire.com/?jmytm3yoj3n

LW Fw190 Section Film
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http://www.mediafire.com/?kq4nh25idjz

Fw190 Combat/Training Films
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http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=3343e243c5ffb6377069484bded33bcd76c3c70c5af0201c



  See everyone this Friday.

[moot]

Thanks Blitzin.

[Cajunn]

thanks, great class
 

[MjTalon]

Np moot, pizza please? 


You're very much welcome Cajunn. See you guys Friday night. 

[PFactorDave]

Thanks for posting these films!  Good stuff.  One question...  Near the beginning of the 190 film, when you were instructing the class on what load out to take, you mentioned that they should only take the 2 20mm gun package and said you would discuss the "why" part.  Things moved along and I never heard the why.  Now, I assume that the 4 20mm package impacts your performance in such a way that it isn't worth the extra fire power.

Can you discuss that please?  In the new FSO scenario, there's a good chance that my squad will be flying 190A5s on a bomber hunting mission.  Is the extra firepower not worth the weight, even in a situation where it is highly likely that bombers will be your primary target (but always knowing you may have to deal with the bombers escorts also).

Thanks for your efforts!  AH2 would benefit from more people like you, willing to go to the trouble of training folks.

[MjTalon]

Thanks for posting these films!  Good stuff.  One question...  Near the beginning of the 190 film, when you were instructing the class on what load out to take, you mentioned that they should only take the 2 20mm gun package and said you would discuss the "why" part.  Things moved along and I never heard the why.  Now, I assume that the 4 20mm package impacts your performance in such a way that it isn't worth the extra fire power.

Can you discuss that please?  In the new FSO scenario, there's a good chance that my squad will be flying 190A5s on a bomber hunting mission.  Is the extra firepower not worth the weight, even in a situation where it is highly likely that bombers will be your primary target (but always knowing you may have to deal with the bombers escorts also).

Thanks for your efforts!  AH2 would benefit from more people like you, willing to go to the trouble of training folks.

Hey Dave,

I did go over why to take the 2x20mm package only at the end of the class but you had to leave before we finished up. The extra 20mm MG FF cannons are unreliable and are not worth the performance hit. Yes, in reality it's more bullets down range but the MG FF's dry very quickly, you will be out of ammo in the FF's and left with the dead weight of the cannon barrels after 3-7 seconds of firing all of the guns, they fire that rapidly. Also, not only do they have a entirely different trajectory than the MG 151s in the fuselage, they are fairly inaccurate and recommended shots with the FF's on are no longer than D400.

So ultimately i would not recommend the MG FF's even in a bomber hunting mission and it doubles if you're expecting engagement with escorts, they're just not worth the added dead weight and performance hit in the roll and maneuverability department where the A5 shines. Hope this explains it a bit more Dave.


On another note, It is quite possible to down enemy bombers with the light gun package of the A5. I highly recommend that any attacks on the bomber stream be conducted from 90% Head On passes that are coordinated and accurate. Yes setting up the bombers to make a HO pass is lengthy, but you will not only minimize flight losses, but minimize the amount of firepower that the bombers are shooting at you with as well as attacking the most vulnerable section of the bomber which is the cockpit.
 

 

[PFactorDave]

Hey Dave,

I did go over why to take the 2x20mm package only at the end of the class but you had to leave before we finished up. The extra 20mm MG FF cannons are unreliable and are not worth the performance hit. Yes, in reality it's more bullets down range but the MG FF's dry very quickly, you will be out of ammo in the FF's and left with the dead weight of the cannon barrels after 3-7 seconds of firing all of the guns, they fire that rapidly. Also, not only do they have a entirely different trajectory than the MG 151s in the fuselage, they are fairly inaccurate and recommended shots with the FF's on are no longer than D400.

So ultimately i would not recommend the MG FF's even in a bomber hunting mission and it doubles if you're expecting engagement with escorts, they're just not worth the added dead weight and performance hit in the roll and maneuverability department where the A5 shines. Hope this explains it a bit more Dave.


On another note, It is quite possible to down enemy bombers with the light gun package of the A5. I highly recommend that any attacks on the bomber stream be conducted from 90% Head On passes that are coordinated and accurate. Yes setting up the bombers to make a HO pass is lengthy, but you will not only minimize flight losses, but minimize the amount of firepower that the bombers are shooting at you with as well as attacking the most vulnerable section of the bomber which is the cockpit.
 

 

Very good, that makes all kinds of sense.  Thanks for answering.   

[MjTalon]

Not a problem. Remember, if anyone has any questions regarding the LW birds and 190 variants don't hesitate to PM me on the BBS or in game. I will be in the TA for a bit today if anyone want's Hands on training.

 

[Krusty]

MG/FF are not the BEST 20mm cannon available, but they ARE 20mm cannon. Ask the 109E pilots in BOB scenarios. They DO land on target and they DO get kills. The 190s are heavy enough, and in my opinion (backed by a long history of flying the 190s) they are more than worth taking in most situations. The extra firepower can make a difference between a glancing hit and a killshot.

Some folks make the claim that the ballistics are noticably different, so that they won't hit when the others do. That's wrong. They will hit. They do hit. The same issue is in play with the 190A8 and the 30mms outboard, but I DEFINITELY see hits on them, even dogfighting. There's no mistaking the fireball hitsprites. You set them to the same convergence and they'll hit at the same spot. The worse guns may have to arc up higher before landing on target, but they'll get there on time. The only real difference is in low-probability spray-and-pray-under-your-nose lead deflection shots on targets zipping past you in the blink of an eye. In those cases you ought not be firing anyways.

The 2-gun package is nice if you really want to dance around and ride the stall as tightly as possible, but by all means mix it up with 4 guns. There's no reason not to. There are many reasons to take 'em. It's a call you make (ride the edge, which most 190s don't do anyways, vs firepower, which is the 190s major strength).

[BnZs]

At 25% fuel, the MG/FFs only increase the gross weight of the A-5 by 2% or so.

With the extra cannons, the 190A5 is slightly harder hitting than the SpitXVI or P-47, without them it is significantly less lethal.

Yes, the ballistics on the MG/FF are not the best and they don't match the trajectory of the 151s, but shouldn't we be "filling the windscreen" anyway?

Batfink and I did a bunch of duels mixing the gun packages all sorts of ways, let's just say, the advantage to the light pilot is slight. And you don't go into the MA or scenarios expecting to fight carefully matched, co-alt, co-e duels against another 190 A-5 with both of you at 25% fuel. So the extra lick of firepower is worthwhile, even though the MG/FFs are so-so at best.

MG/FF are not the BEST 20mm cannon available, but they ARE 20mm cannon. Ask the 109E pilots in BOB scenarios. They DO land on target and they DO get kills. The 190s are heavy enough, and in my opinion (backed by a long history of flying the 190s) they are more than worth taking in most situations. The extra firepower can make a difference between a glancing hit and a killshot.

Some folks make the claim that the ballistics are noticably different, so that they won't hit when the others do. That's wrong. They will hit. They do hit. The same issue is in play with the 190A8 and the 30mms outboard, but I DEFINITELY see hits on them, even dogfighting. There's no mistaking the fireball hitsprites. You set them to the same convergence and they'll hit at the same spot. The worse guns may have to arc up higher before landing on target, but they'll get there on time. The only real difference is in low-probability spray-and-pray-under-your-nose lead deflection shots on targets zipping past you in the blink of an eye. In those cases you ought not be firing anyways.

The 2-gun package is nice if you really want to dance around and ride the stall as tightly as possible, but by all means mix it up with 4 guns. There's no reason not to. There are many reasons to take 'em. It's a call you make (ride the edge, which most 190s don't do anyways, vs firepower, which is the 190s major strength).

[mechanic]

^agreed.

Although the slight differences sometimes are the difference between winning and losing. So Judge your overall flying style in the 190. If you are overall defensive you should take the 2 guns to give you that little extra bounce. If you are going to be at constant advantage, definitely take the extra firepower. IMO.

[Cajunn]

but what I think Blitz was trying to say that is because of the limited ammo, its not worth the hit on performance. And I notice a differents with and without them IMO it feels a little sluggish with them.

[BnZs]

^agreed.

Although the slight differences sometimes are the difference between winning and losing. So Judge your overall flying style in the 190. If you are overall defensive you should take the 2 guns to give you that little extra bounce. If you are going to be at constant advantage, definitely take the extra firepower. IMO.

Well Bat, I think if you can make the Spit16 overshoot and hit a shot with 2 cannons, you can also do it with 4 cannons.

MG/FFs have 10 seconds of fire, which is 3 3second bursts...3 kills if you are on target. Blitzin correctly pointed out that fighting as a team is what what most effectively enhances the 190s strengths and most effectively covers its weaknesses...IMO extra lethality on the shots is an enhancement in such a situation worth trading a little ability in a stall-fight, which is not the 190's strength relative most any other kind of ride anyway.

[MjTalon]

Well Bat, I think if you can make the Spit16 overshoot and hit a shot with 2 cannons, you can also do it with 4 cannons.

MG/FFs have 10 seconds of fire, which is 3 3second bursts...3 kills if you are on target. Blitzin correctly pointed out that fighting as a team is what what most effectively enhances the 190s strengths and most effectively covers its weaknesses...IMO extra lethality on the shots is an enhancement in such a situation worth trading a little ability in a stall-fight, which is not the 190's strength relative most any other kind of ride anyway.

May i also point out that even though the A5 is the slowest of the 190 series "possibly excluding the F8" the a5's maneuverability is it's strong point as well as a good gun package. If you load it out like a A8 then why not take the A8 instead? The 190A5 performs it's dogfighter role outstanding when light and even though the MG FF's do make a slight performance dint, from personal experience the lighter the 190, the better your chances of survival if you're in a maneuvering engagement.

[Krusty]

A-8 and F-8 have 100% identical climb and speed stats. It's an issue I've pointed out before. Our F-8... isn't. Not to mention our A-8 is NOTICABLY overweight, like flying with 500lbs under it at all times, and this is probably screwing with acceleration, climb rate, and top speed as well. The outboard 20mm and 30mm are BOTH way off the normal weight when empty, one high and the other low, and in general if the A-8 were as it SHOULD be, it would be quite a bit more competitive (more akin to the A-5 I would say). I was under the impression the A-8 is running at more horsepower than the A-5. We get the weight issues fixed and maybe we start seeing benefits to using the 8 vs the 5. (*shrugs*)

Calling the A-5 manuverable is like calling a Ugo fast. It's all too relative. The A-5 is the "most" nimble out of the WORST planes in the game. Its turn radius is about 790 feet, as compared to the A-8s 874 feet (I believe that's with 4x 20mm on the A-8).

Compare that to this sampling of very common planes in the LWs:

(noflaps/flaps)
F4u1d: 702/427
109K: 703/533
La7: 617/453
Spit8: 568/448
P38J: 817/598
F6F: 649/465
109G2: 636/467
Ki84: 595/445

Note that using flaps in a 190 in a turn fight is a death sentence, so I won't give you unhelpful numbers by posting flaps' turn radius for the 190s and pretending they make a difference.

The A-5 is not competitive with ANY other plane classified as "manuverable" in regards to turn rate. It may feel like it because you're coming from "horrific" to "just plain terrible" and you can feel the difference between the two.


You want to really dogfight a 190, you have to learn to do it heavy. I almost never take less than 75%, and often take 100% (if not 75%+DT). You're almost NEVER going to meet the enemy with 15% fuel in your tanks. Let's be honest, a LOT of planes do some "wonderful" things when they're flying on no fuel. Try the same things at 50% or more and you plow into the ground. With that said, the weight of your entire MG/FF package of outboard guns is less than the weight of 25% of your internal fuel load. (139 gal = 832 lbs, MG/FF + ammo = 196lbs). Your fuel weighs more than your guns.

If you're freaked out about weight, fire off all but 100 rounds of your 20mm (saves you 194lbs), dump all your 7mms on the runway (saves 117lbs), leave the ETC rack at home (weighs 130 or 160, I can't remember), take off with only 25% gas (saves 624 lbs).

You'll only have about enough ammo for 1 kill, but you only have about 5 minutes of gas anyways so it evens out.


My point is if you get all freaked out about weight savings fly a spit. They do it all better. If you want to fly a 190, and fly it RIGHT, you take the gas and ammo to rack up 10 kills in a sortie. How you get those kills and if you make it back is up to you, but there are so many ways of doing it that DON'T include shooting your own feet off to save weight.

EDIT: Not intended to start a fight. Intended to convey my long experience flying 190s in AH and how in their current state going all out for "weight savings" is not the answer to most problems (for this particular plane). I'm not denying that it helps, but it's generally not the best choice in the end. It IS however a choice, and you have to make it.