Author Topic: Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon  (Read 7296 times)

Offline gripen

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2001, 05:39:00 AM »
Renegade Savage,
Generally the P-51 without fuselage tank had longer range than the P-38 without leading edge tanks (production models before J-15). With those tanks the P-51 still had a better range. It can be argued that the P-38 could cruise very long time at low RPM and high MAP but that was not practical in the ETO. One of main tactical advantages of the P-51 was ability to cruise fast (high energy level) at combat area.

Turning performance issues are discused above, the P-38 had gentle stall, noone has argued otherwise.

Find a manual to understand compressebility issue under g load and this same thing is described in the "America's Hundred Thousand" too.

Those boosted ailerons were introduced in the J-25 and at high altitude the P-38 could not safely do more than 290mph IAS so there the P-51 had advantage in the hole speed range. It should be also noted that boosted ailerons did not solve slow acceleration of the roll which was a conceptual problem.

Comparing just hp values without counting exhaust thrust and propeller efficiency is not fair. Besides the V-1650-3 in the P-51B had rammed critical WEP altitude about 27k (29k according to some sources).

Please show us less incorrect and less biased data than USAF tests.

Funked_up,
Actually the RAF did not just tested but also used grade 100/150 fuel in their Mustangs for the V1 hunt.

bolillo_loco,
The P-51B-1 in the USAF test weighed "approximately 9000lbs", in the RAF and RR test weighs were equall or above 9000lbs (except in the case of the Mustang I). The P-51D climbed some 200-300fpm slower than the P-51B due to higher weight and higher drag.

Generally I see the tests I have quoted quite reliable, the P-51 was loaded for similar or longer range than other planes in the comparison.

You can easily find books by Ethell or Delve but there are excellent archives around like the PRO or the NARA, you don't have to rely on books...

Guppy,
I agree your point about the Mustang I, normal combat load was around 8600lbs and also the F4R was very rare on the Mustang.

As I have noted above, generally the P-38 climbed better than the P-51 but the difference is not very large if both planes are loaded for a similar mission. And I mostly agree with your numbers except in the case of the P-51B which climbed a bit better than the P-51D, around 3600-3750fpm on WEP.

gripen

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

Offline Guppy

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
A few hundred feet per minute in climb rate isn't a massive difference, true, but it is something. The fighters of 8th AF didn't generally have to scramble to altitude to defend their own bases, so it probably didn't matter that much to them.

As for range, the last air victories of 13th AF were claimed over Singapore by P-38s;  http://www.enter.net/~rocketeer/13thfacts.html  states that the Lightnings in question were based in the Phillippines, a round-trip distance of over 2,000 mi. Of course, this required 300 gal. drop tanks and superb air discipline. The large tanks were not used in the ETO, and it would be hard to maintain a precision cruise while flying over heavily defended parts of Europe.

To be fair, the IAS restrictions on both planes with altitude were as follows:

P-38:
10,000 ft: 420 mph
20,000 ft: 360 mph
30,000 ft: 290 mph

(Dive flaps were estimated to add an extra 20 mph to the above.)

P-51:
0 ft: 505 mph
10,000 ft: 480 mph
20,000 ft: 400 mph
30,000 ft: 300 mph

I did get the impression that the limits imposed on the P-51 had more to do with structural integrity (shedding wings in a hard pullout) than compressibility, though.

One P-38 ace who went on to fly the P-51 for some years postwar stated that he thought the Lightning was better below 20,000 ft and the Mustang above 20,000 ft; from the available evidence, I'm inclined to go with that.

By the way, does anyone know of any flight evaluations done with the P-82 (F-82) Twin Mustang? I'm curious as to what its initial roll response was like, given its configuration.

Offline Tac

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2001, 10:43:00 AM »
"I think the 38 has been fixed to a point of perk?  J/K I like it now. It needed the fix and I hope others are looked into as well"

Give me a 38F/H/J , fix the dive flaps on the L and you can make the 38L a cheap 4pnt perk plane... IF the 51D, La7, 190D9 and 109G10 get perked likewise  :)

Offline gripen

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2001, 12:44:00 PM »
Gubby,
Not much to comment about the rest but the IAS limits varied somewhat between the models, for example the P-51B had following restrictions:
35k 298mph
30k 336mph
25k 376mph
20k 422mph
15k 468mph
10k 520mph
But it should be noted that going above limiting speeds with the Mustang was not as fatal as it was with the P-38. Buffeting started around mach 0,75 but under test conditions the P-51 reached mach 0,86 and still under control. In the case of the P-38 buffeting and tuck under started around mach 0,67 with or without dive flaps and became increasingly stronger above this speed. The dive flaps gave positive pitch making recovery possible at somewhat faster speed than without them and also added a lot of drag but even with flaps speeds over mach 0,7 were very dangerous.

gripen

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

Offline batdog

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
Hehe..TAC is sneaky. The J is faster AND lighter as it doesnt have quite the fuel load of the L...


 xBAT

P.S. Yea a GREEN 38 would be nice.
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Suave1

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2001, 03:05:00 PM »
"jumping on the p-38 bandwagon"

Correction:
Although it was suggested by developers, the name "bandwagon" was never officially given to the p38, fortunately they decided on the more menacing sounding "lightening" . Just thought I'd clear that up .

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Suave1 ]

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2001, 03:37:00 PM »
Generally is a rather broad term. Excluding proper fuel management is not really a good basis for the comparison either.

  The USAAF data almost always shows the Mustang being tested at less than full combat weight, especially the later models with more guns, armor, and fuel. Empty the 85 gallon fuselage tank behind the cockpit and you have a different plane. Around 600# of weight in a bad place for the center of gravity changes the whole flight envelope.

  The first P-38J, the J-1-Lo had 65 gallon leading edge tanks, the later versions had from 110 up to 160 gallon leading edge tanks.

  As to flying for fuel economy, the speed of the P-38 was not greatly reduced when flying at 50" of pressure at 2200 RPM in auto lean, and it could cruise at the same speed as the P-51. Using the Lindberg method was out of the question in the ETO, since he specified auto lean, 55" of manifold pressure, and 1600 RPM. The only problem with using the first method is that you had to be able to throttle up without looking, and to know when to do it. If you had to look at the throttles, prop and mixture controls, and had to be told when to throttle up, you were in trouble. The P-51 was easier to fly in that respect. But there was no great disparity in cruise speeds, and if you had to fly with the bombers, then the bombers were the limit anyway.

  Also loaded out for the same mission, the P-38 could climb out towards enemy territory directly, where as the P-51 required you either reach enemy territory with lower altitude, or burn fuel circling while you climbed.

 To quote Captain Arthur Heiden 20th FG 8th USAAF, "You could reach cruise altitude from England before landfall in a P-38, while in the P-51, you still had considerable climbing left to do."  I'd prefer to arrive to the fight at altitude and speed, with plenty of internal fuel left to fight and go home.

At its critical altitude of of 26,900 feet, the P-51D had a top speed of 437MPH, while the P-38J-25-Lo had a top speed of 414 MPH. At 30,000 feet, the speed roles were reversed, with the P-38 at 412, and the P-51 at 404. At 35,000 feet, they were no closer, at 389 for the P-38, and 378 for the P-51. At 40,000 feet the P-38 was at 348 MPH, while the P-51 was at... just over 37,000 feet. These compare true air speeds at WEP, 67" of manifold pressure for the P-51, and 64" for the P-38. The P-51 had neither the lift nor the power of the P-38 at very high altitudes, but the better prop carried it up okay.

  The advantage of the P-38 was two fold. the turbocharger gave it a decided power advantage at altitudes of 30,000 feet or higher, and the high aspect ratio wing gave it more lift at low speed and at high altitude in the thin air.

 The Merlin was always a great engine in the altitude range it was tuned for. The single drawback of a strictly mechanical supercharger compared to a turbocharger is that it is tied directly to engine speed, and is incapable of compensating for changes in altitude beyond a very specific range. that is why there were several versions of the Spitfire that had only engine changes, their engines were tuned for certain altitude ranges.

  The thinner laminar flow wing of the P-51 gave it a decided edge in speed and drag, but it had less lift, which hurt lower speed handling and also hurt the climb rate.

  Nothing is free. the high aspect ratio wing of the P-38 gave it lift, fuel capacity, low speed handling, and climb, but at the price of drag, and it was the wing that caused compression. Kelly Johnson always admired the Spitfire wing profile, but the Spitfire never had the range afforded by the internal wing tanks.

 The first thing done to the P-38 to combat compression was to increase the radius at the joint between the wings and the center nacelle. They had wanted to further increase that radius, along with moving the leading edge at the center nacelle forward, thereby increasing the sweep, and add two or three more degrees of dihedral to the wing section. But any really serious development geared towards major air frame changes was dropped after the P-38K was cancelled.

You are correct, the P-38 had no exhaust thrust boost, nor did it have any ram effect, except for a field modification never factory nor Lockheed approved, but used none the less. The GE B2,B33, and B34 turbochargers did not like the backpressure resulting form the fitting of an exhaust hood designed to produce exhaust thrust. There was no gain from the radiator exhaust either.

You are also correct that the Curtiss prop on the P-38 sucked. It is indeed a testament to the Allison that it was able to power the plane so well despite the props. It should be noted that Lockheed requested that they be allowed to fit the Hamilton Standard prop to the P-38. The USAAF and War Production Board considered the P-38 to be so critical to the war effort that the estimated production stoppage of 7-10 days was out of the question. The USAAF supplied the Curtiss prop in 1939, and required Lockheed to use it, and while they allowed nearly every other fighter to be fitted with the Hamilton Standard prop, the P-38 was never afforded that advantage.

A good comparison can be made by looking at the P-51K, which was fitted with a version of the Curtiss prop. The P-51K lagged some 25-40 MPH behind the P-51D in top speed, and some 600 FPM in rate of climb.

Witness the P-38K, AKA the P-38 that never was. With just the Hamilton Standard prop, it was faster at all altitudes than the P-51D. It also had a rate of climb superior to any U.S. fighter. The increase in efficiency from the prop resulted in a 10-15% increase in range.

 I'm in complete agreement that exceeding critical Mach in a P-38 was more dangerous than in any other plane save the P-47, and it was a close race there. of the U.S. planes, the P-51 probably did as well or better than any when critical Mach was exceeded.

 I also agree that between 20,000 feet and 27,000 feet, at speeds above 300 MPH, the P-51 held some decided advantages in both turn and roll rate, along with a measurable advantage in engine performance relating to top speed. The advantages the P-38 held were climb rate, turn rate below 275 MPH, and acceleration below 350 MPH.

 Below 20,000 feet, and above 30,000 feet the P-38 was a better ride.

 That being said, knowing half a dozen real World War II pilots who flew the P-51, the P-38, and the P-47, from what they've told me, I'd prefer to be in the P-38, as it was a better all around performer at most speeds and altitudes. I'll give up a little advantage at certain speeds and altitudes in order to gain better all around performance at a wider range of speeds and altitudes.

The truth is, it's the guy with the yoke or stick in his hands that makes the difference. Among the U.S. planes, the P-38 was like a Ferrari or a Corvette, it was a killer in the hands of a dedicated expert, but would get an uninitiated kid in deep trouble.

 There is considerable data on the P/F-82. The engines in it were actually designed for the P-38, and fitted with turbochargers would have made considerably more power than even the P-38L engines, but the Curtiss prop could never harness the power.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Tac

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
*drool*

Offline Raubvogel

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
Speaking of P-38's....what's up with all the P-38s at 40k in the MA lately?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
*drool*

And you're drooling over? Or you think I'm drooling?

I wish I had decent frame rates, I'd be flying instead of arguing in these discussions. But my frame rates too ka huge hit with the latest patch. Sixteen FPS at best and 10 FPS average with a drop to 4 FPS isn't uncommon.

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Renegade Savage ]
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Guppy

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
The numbers I've seen cited for the P-38 in a dive are Mach 0.72 without dive flaps and Mach 0.74 with them--this was right on the edge of the envelope, though.

For the P-51, I think the limiting factors were structural integrity (whether your P-51 was one of the occasional ones on which the wings came off), and pilot strength--I gather the Mustang's stick could be very stiff indeed at high speeds.

(Interesting point C.C. Jordan made a while back, about how Robert Johnson was apparently a very strong man and this may have been why he could always outroll everyone in his P-47 at speed.)

Suave1, you should be glad Lockheed didn't get their way. I mean, "Atlanta"?  :p

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
I was thinking back over about 20 years of these discussions. When it comes to the P-38 vs. P-51 vs. P-47 arguement, it is always the same. For those who haven't been doing this for 20 years, here is the Reader's Digest Condensed Version:

P-51 advocate: Speed in a dive, level speed, critical Mach, range, high speed turn.

P-38 advocate: Climb, range, accleration, low stall speed, medium and low speed turn rate, durability, high and low altitude performance, firepower, gun platform stability, ordinance capacity.

P-47 advocate: Speed, roll rate, firepower, high altitude performance, extreme toughness, ground attack capability, ordinance capacity.

Repeat over and over again until blue in the face. Get testy and annoyed, repeat to infinity.

Many people more learned and qualified than any of us have done this before.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2001, 05:42:00 PM »
I have some legitimate questions I'd like some answers to, other than the standard B.S. answers.

 There were several things the USAAF and the War Production Board refused to allow Lockheed to use. Nearly every other front line fighter had them.

  First, the Hamilton Standard High Activity Hydrostatic paddle prop, first a three and later a four blade version. Obviously it was a huge improvement in performance and reliability.

 Second, the K-14 gyroscopically stabilized lead computing gunsite. Again, an obvious improvement.

 Third, (and no other plane had it either) was the master combat control, that turned on the gun heater, the gun switches, the light in the gunsite, set the props and the mixture. All you had to do was hit the combat control lever and switch, and throttle up.

  Anyone got any legitimate no B.S. answers?

  By the way, it was the British that called it the Lightning.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline laz

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2001, 06:03:00 PM »
renegade.... are you talking real life or game situation?   :confused:

Offline gripen

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
Renegade Savage,
Well, too much text to comment all your points, anyway...

The balance point problem of the P-51 (B,D and K) was not really a big issue with correct fuel management.

You certainly know what I meaned when I wrote about leading edge tanks. All combat ready P-38 models before the J-15 had 300 gallon internal fuel capacity (two 90 gallon tanks in the wing center and two 60 gallon tanks in the inner leading edge) and less range than the P-51 without fuselage tank (180 gallon). Later Js had in addition two 55 gallon tanks in outer leading edges which earlier housed intercoolers) and comparable P-51 had in addition 79 gallon tank and still better range even if the fuselage tank was half full.

The P-51 could cruise economically (about 5,5mpg) around 320-350mph true at 20-30k and the P-38 cruised (3,7-4,5mpg) 250-300mph true at these altitudes. The P-51 had a clear advantage. BTW you are the first one to claim that the P-51 could not reach operating altitude before operating area...

Then it should be noted that I have talked all the time about the P-51B with the V-1650-3. And it did over 430mph at 30k, 425mph at 35k and 400mph at 40k. Clearly better than any production P-38.

BTW the V-1710-111/113 was rated at 60" and 3000rpm with the grade 100/130 fuel, I wonder where from your 64" value comes? Also it should be noted that the F30R/L in the P-38L had critical altitude 25800ft without RAM and 28700ft with RAM, the limiting factor was the turbo (overspeeding).

gripen

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]