Author Topic: Major complaint....  (Read 5581 times)

Offline humble

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2009, 12:56:37 PM »
One missing aspect here is cloud cover. It was an important variable and one I believe is modifiable in AH (to at least some degree). Bombing alts and ingress/egress routes were effected by weather. One aspect to explore would be cloud cover at various altitudes. If we could have mixed clouds at 23,000 (example) then either you take your chances going higher that you might have an obscured target or you go in at 22,500 ft. Other option is a recon element (which is also real) to scout weather over target. A lot of variables effected the choice of altitude beyond the planes design limits.

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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2009, 01:39:07 PM »
Yes cloud cover is possible in events. It just has to be built into the terrain and modified. In Aleutians I used it to simulate the bad weather and also used it to force the fighting under a certain level. Basically you can't bomb what you can't see. So if you put in clouds bombers will need to plan to come in under them at certain point to bomb. Now while they can still go high alt they will have to descend at some point to get under them which takes time since they are not the most graceful planes or build for high speed dives. Not to mention you want to keep formation with your buddies.

So clouds are one definitely option which has been used previously.
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2009, 02:10:25 PM »
Cloud cover was used in Der Grosse Schlagg and it aborted an entire bomb division's bombing one frame as both the primary and secondary targets were covered.  And yes we had weather scouts, it was clear when they checked the primary, it built up over time.  Note the primary and secondary were 3 or 4 sectors apart.. the whole southeastern quarter of the map was socked in.   :aok
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2009, 02:40:06 PM »
Clouds made a HUGE impact on the frame of Ardennes I CiCed (Frame 2). I intended to protect St. Vith and push the Axis advance forward by hammering the VHs down at the Allied V-bases that spawned into it, but heavy cloud cover all the way down to the deck blinded the strike packages entirely and they couldn't hit their targets.
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Offline AKKaz

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2009, 06:29:19 PM »
Yep...they could fly at 30K. But I think that would be pushing things for the poor bananas in 190s asked to intercept buffs in our scenarios. Keeping 'em 20-25K is also historically "realistic" but doesn't totally put them in a range where the most common interceptors in AHII scenarios have absolutely no performance left.


From reading some of the reports in that, alot of variables probably went into what was assigned as alt for each mission.  Escort type and range, weather (as stated), distance, Situation at the time of LW capability/local, ack reports, etc.  Even the numbers of bombers in the attack mission made a diffence depending on your station (high, medium or low echelon).

I still think it would do more harm than good if a "cross the board" alt cap was imposed for all FSO's.  If one seems necessary for a particular event, then impose it on that event.  There are times when targets can be deep into enemy territory and fighter escorts are really stressed on fuel to even make the route (much less dogfight). There have been a few times escorts used fuel fighting on the way in and had to RTB even before the return route of the buffs. On those runs, at a cap of 20-24k (give or take), you may be looking at 4 or more hits from converging units or multiple rearms through 5,6,or 7 sectors before getting feet wet.

Then the high alt becomes almost an aid to survive.
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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2009, 07:06:16 PM »
Cloud cover was used in Der Grosse Schlagg and it aborted an entire bomb division's bombing one frame as both the primary and secondary targets were covered.  And yes we had weather scouts, it was clear when they checked the primary, it built up over time.  Note the primary and secondary were 3 or 4 sectors apart.. the whole southeastern quarter of the map was socked in.   :aok

I remember the transmissions of the 1st BD stating unable to bomb due to weather.  It made me wonder if we were going to run into the same situation. :)

I also remember frame 4 of DGS, while flying in the 3rd BD, as soon as we hit our primary target, cloud cover had set in and we were unable to get clear pictures for the BDA.  Either the wind had cleared the target for us, or it was about to become covered, depending on the wind direction that frame.  Good times.   :aok
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2009, 01:38:20 AM »
Cloud cover was used in Der Grosse Schlagg and it aborted an entire bomb division's bombing one frame as both the primary and secondary targets were covered.  And yes we had weather scouts, it was clear when they checked the primary, it built up over time.  Note the primary and secondary were 3 or 4 sectors apart.. the whole southeastern quarter of the map was socked in.   :aok

I remember that well, the 474th's P38s had escorted that group the entire way to the primary, secondary and then to the tertiary target. I felt we had flown Tokyo from England that frame, my P38 had full internal and external tanks and I ended up landing with 7 gallons of gas left.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2009, 02:22:19 AM »
I remember that well, the 474th's P38s had escorted that group the entire way to the primary, secondary and then to the tertiary target. I felt we had flown Tokyo from England that frame, my P38 had full internal and external tanks and I ended up landing with 7 gallons of gas left.

Still hands down the best experience I've had in Aces High too :)
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2009, 11:55:41 PM »
Still hands down the best experience I've had in Aces High too :)

Put me down on the other side. I'm glad this is over.
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2009, 11:59:22 PM »
I still love Western Front scenarios. Even if you don't do well, the feeling of immersion is just unmatched.
Having 1 enemy for every one of your squadmates and having them let you shoot them down is not fun IMO.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2009, 12:01:42 AM »
Put me down on the other side. I'm glad this is over.

Agreed.  I have some thoughts on the issue, but will reserve them until after the logs are released.

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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2009, 12:17:34 AM »
Perhaps more radar for the Germans would be a nice thing. :)  It's 1944, I think radar was improved to cover all of France by then.

:)

Now I know how the British felt with no radar in BoB'08.    :mad:
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2009, 12:51:40 AM »
I still love Western Front scenarios. Even if you don't do well, the feeling of immersion is just unmatched.
Having 1 enemy for every one of your squadmates and having them let you shoot them down is not fun IMO.

My first complaint is that three ETO scenarios in a bit too much. And it serves to reinforce my frustration on the plane sets: Luftwaffe guys are all but guaranteed they'll get to fly their favorite rides at LEAST every other month with the typical ETO - PTO - ETO rotation. However PTO scenarios are no guarantee that Blue Plane sticks get theirs (case in point: August Storm).

There was a definite lack of "fun" among my squadron due to getting steamrolled in all three frames by 50 BUFFs and 20-odd escorts.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2009, 01:00:51 AM »
My biggest beef is in the aircraft allocations on the allied side...  In this last frame, it was roughly 1/3 of the pilots in bombers and 2/3 of the allied pilots in fighters.  I don't think the escorts should out number the bombers 2 to 1.

That kind of lopsided design virtually guarantees that the Axis squads will get steam rolled.  In a setup like this, there should be way more bombers and far fewer escorts.

My $0.02
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 01:05:25 AM by PFactorDave »

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Offline Nefarious

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Re: Major complaint....
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2009, 08:25:26 AM »
My first complaint is that three ETO scenarios in a bit too much.

I was thinking that myself. Especially back to back BOB04 Maps.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!