Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[Guppy35]

Fair to who? I'm fine with it the way it is right now.

Ren

Yep, seems fine to me as well.

[hitech]

If we imagine an arena set with three planes in it, say the P-51D, SpitXVI, and a HurriIIC (thought I'd throw in an "irrelevant" EW/MW plane), which one would I consider perk-worthy? Answer: NONE. All of these planes have at least on clear advantage over the others in relative performance. If we were to introduce the La7 to this set, I would say perk it, because at typical MA altitudes it would enjoy almost complete superiority to, and strongly effect the viability of, a very large chunk of this set, namely the 25% of this set that is composed by the P-51D.

This statement does not define a goal,I am not giving you a hard time, what is your goal in the above statement.

Is your goal to have a plane set that every plane has one "clear" advantage in one area of combat over every other plane?

HiTech

[grizz441]

Like the other popular planes, its stats are watered-down by the number of inexperienced pilots flying them. Or do you now think the P-38J/Ta-152's K/D superiority means they are better? Thousands of kills per tour there for each, not exactly a rare "fluke" result.



P-38? P-47D? Fw-190A? Ki-84? F6F?

Do you ever consider the possibility that people in the LW MA seem to always take speed-demons OR uber-turners because the SpitXVI so out-classes most everything in the middle of the speed/maneuverability continuum?

Now the 325mph N1K, that is "slow" for an LW MA plane. That which cannot turn with it can extend for the most part.

Then there is the HurriIIc, although it doesn't really count for my purposes, having a good turn radius advantage over the XVI. It *is* interesting to point out that it is fairly popular in the MA (so much "irrelevant EW relics") *and* has one of the higher K/Ds (so much for the validity of K/D...by that measurement, it is better than both the P-51D and SpitXVI...and considering it is slower than an iron toad, so much for "speed is everything").

The Ta152 and 38J?  I already told you, these two planes don't have a strong enough following in the MA to have a 'fair' K/D objective stat.  If each of the planes recorded three times as many sorties per tour, they would not have inflated stats that are caused their vet following.  I already explained this twice now, yet you still ignore it. 

I listed 8 of the most popular rides in the game faster than the Spit16.  You counter argued by naming some second class planes that are slower or the same speed. 

[shreck]

Do you ever consider the possibility that people in the LW MA seem to always take speed-demons OR uber-turners because the SpitXVI so out-classes most everything in the middle of the speed/maneuverability continuum?

Now the 325mph N1K, that is "slow" for an LW MA plane. That which cannot turn with it can extend for the most part.

Hmm, I digest spit16s and nikis regularly in my 38G   I think the "G" stands for  Giant Gonads 

Or maybe Goofball

[Guppy35]

Hmm, I digest spit16s and nikis regularly in my 38G   I think the "G" stands for  Giant Gonads 

Or maybe Goofball

Goofball, without a doubt.  Wouldn't have it any other way

[BnZs]

Is your goal to have a plane set that every plane has one "clear" advantage in one area of combat over every other plane?
HiTech

Or as close to it as practical. I'm not entirely rigid on the matter. You might have a situation where one plane was faster and double-superior to maybe one or two aircraft at typical MA alts, but only marginally so, and I would feel it was acceptable to leave that case alone. You might have something like the 109 K-4, which perhaps looks perkable from an energy and turn performance standpoint, but which possesses a good number of pronounced weaknesses offsetting it's strengths.

I can honestly say that if the SpitXVI was 10mph slower, or had terrible visibility problems, or was badly dive-limited, had a poor gun package, or had a thrust/weight that was near the bottom of the pack, or perhaps a combination of such disadvantages, I would not be in favor of perking it.

By way of contrast, the N1K enjoys quite a bit of popularity and draws quite a few "perk it threads". However, upon examination it seems to be significantly slower than most if not all of that which it greatly out-turns, it has a poor roll rate, and the climb rate isn't breaking any records. Therefore, its usage could quadruple for all I care and I still would not favor perking it.

[BnZs]

My dear Grizz, my entire point with contrasting these statistics has been to show that k/d hinges largely upon the unpredictable variable of "who's flying it" and may not accurately reflect the relative capability of the aircraft, and that is why I consider k/d basically useless in determining whether or not a give plane performs well enough to warrant perkage.

The Ta152 and 38J?  I already told you, these two planes don't have a strong enough following in the MA to have a 'fair' K/D objective stat.  If each of the planes recorded three times as many sorties per tour, they would not have inflated stats that are caused their vet following.  I already explained this twice now, yet you still ignore it. 

I listed 8 of the most popular rides in the game faster than the Spit16.  You counter argued by naming some second class planes that are slower or the same speed.

Grizz, who is the one being non-objective by arbitrarily declaring some rides "second-class"? My point has been that IMHO the SpitXVI enjoys near total a2a superiority relative too many rides at typical LW alts to remain free. I named some of them. The P-47Ds, P-38J/L, Fw-190As, and F6F are "second class" or "irrelevant relics"? I don't think so. They were widely produced historically important planes that would be vastly more viable for the average player to fly (as something *besides* a bomb truck) if they weren't practically guaranteed to run into large numbers of Spixteens who do just about everything better a2a. The Ki-84, arguably the best plane in the Japanese set, would also see a large increase in usefulness/viability if it weren't for ubiquitous Spixteens doing nearly everything just a little better in a2a combat.

[Lye-El]

By way of contrast, the N1K enjoys quite a bit of popularity and draws quite a few "perk it threads".

Simply because it has 4 cannon and it is fought as a Joust fighter.

What I get out of this thread is flying a Spit 9 is stupid and I should be flying a Super Duper Spit 16. Because it is simply fabulous. Just like the Perk the LA-7 threads before it. Perk the 16 and the LA-7 becomes the perk it whipping boy once again because it has 3 cannon and is fast. Leap ahead into the past.

[crazyivan]

I'm  unbiased. I shoot at all red planes.

[BnZs]

Simply because it has 4 cannon and it is fought as a Joust fighter.

What I get out of this thread is flying a Spit 9 is stupid and I should be flying a Super Duper Spit 16. Because it is simply fabulous. Just like the Perk the LA-7 threads before it. Perk the 16 and the LA-7 becomes the perk it whipping boy once again because it has 3 cannon and is fast. Leap ahead into the past.

You misunderstand. We do not need to perk the La7 because it is "fast and has cannon".  If it was the fastest unperked plane but turned worse than a Fw or something, I'd not call for perkage. I call for perkage of the La-7 because it is extremely fast AND enjoys a decided advantage in turn performance and hp/weight vs. a great chunk of the plane set that it runs down. Your SpitIX, by contrast, is slower than nearly everything over which it has a large turn and/or climb advantage, and thus its strengths and weaknesses roughly balance out vs. the rest of the set in a2a. I hate having to keep repeating this particular point, it really is a very simple concept to "grok". Nothing personal towards you specifically when I say this mind you.

[Karnak]

The Spit IX has a climb advantage over almost nothing that is common in the MA.

All the Spit IX has going for it is the Hispanos and a relatively good turning ability.

[Krusty]

Wow... more lies.

Spit9 as-modeled (in-game) outclimbs a P-51 across all alts, is pretty close to Ki84 and C205 up to 9k then blows them away, and where most of the planeset makes around 3000fpm climb rate on average, it's doing 3800fpm up til almost 10k.


For somebody that pretends to love spits, you sure don't know them much in this game. Either that, or you do but you pretend they're inferior so folks don't fly them as much?

Let's compare some more:

Blows away the F6F, F4u1, Yak9U in climb rates at ALL alts.

Almost 2x better climb rate than N1k2 above 6k, can't quite match 109s below 6k (but the 109 is pretty much considered the best climbing family of planes in the entire game, not a fair comparison, right? But wait there's more!) but still matches or surpasses the 109G2 and G6 above 9k in climb rate.

Let's try some more:
P38J, Typhoon, P47D40, blows them all away in climb rate.


Yeah, so clearly the spit9 can't outclimb anything in this game, as Karaya states... 

[BnZs]

The Spit IX has a climb advantage over almost nothing that is common in the MA.

All the Spit IX has going for it is the Hispanos and a relatively good turning ability.

Huh...according to DokGonzo's charts the SpitIX outclimbs the P-51D, F4U-1D, P-47D-40, P-47N, P-38L, and F6F. Those are all LW planes, with the exception of the F6F, and none of them can be called "uncommon". But, do not take this observation as reason for major disagreement between us Karnak, since I have clearly articulated my opinion that the SpitVIII should be left a free plane.

[Ack-Ack]

Invective ? ... too funny ... when someone pulls the covers on you, your excuse for self-promotion and pomposity is because your "returning the favor" ... nice try.

It's his modus operandi.  The emporer doesn't like it when you point out he's not wearing any clothes.

As I said in the past and I'll say it again.  The only reason why BnZ wants the Spitfire Mk XVI perked is that he feels that others should fly other planes, preferably ones that he can have a fighting chance again.  It's the same whine we used to hear about the LA 7, same whine just a different plane.

Not one single bit of evidence he's supplied comes close to proving the Spitfire Mk XVI needs to be perked, sure he throws a lot of numbers out there but like his entire argument, those numbers are meaningless.

ack-ack

[grizz441]

My dear Grizz, my entire point with contrasting these statistics has been to show that k/d hinges largely upon the unpredictable variable of "who's flying it" and may not accurately reflect the relative capability of the aircraft, and that is why I consider k/d basically useless in determining whether or not a give plane performs well enough to warrant perkage.

Grizz, who is the one being non-objective by arbitrarily declaring some rides "second-class"? My point has been that IMHO the SpitXVI enjoys near total a2a superiority relative too many rides at typical LW alts to remain free. I named some of them. The P-47Ds, P-38J/L, Fw-190As, and F6F are "second class" or "irrelevant relics"? I don't think so. They were widely produced historically important planes that would be vastly more viable for the average player to fly (as something *besides* a bomb truck) if they weren't practically guaranteed to run into large numbers of Spixteens who do just about everything better a2a. The Ki-84, arguably the best plane in the Japanese set, would also see a large increase in usefulness/viability if it weren't for ubiquitous Spixteens doing nearly everything just a little better in a2a combat.

I'm bowing out.