MjTalon's Bomber Speed Idea

[Anaxogoras]

Until Aces High tries to approximate complex engine management there isn't much to be done here.

[AKKuya]

Let's put this to a test in a future FSO.  Let's take 60 players and put them with B-17's and B-24's with no escorts like in WW2 before the Ponies with Rolls Royce Engines.  They attack 4 targets only.  The Axis has no information as to what is being attacked like in WW2.  The remaining 500 or so players are the Luftwaffe in fighters.  

[Anaxogoras]

Is there an altitude restriction on the bombers?  Are they given enough time to go as high as they want?

[RTHolmes]

Until Aces High tries to approximate complex engine management there isn't much to be done here.

if thats a reply to my post, more complex engine managment isnt required. just the correct application of a time limit for WEP on heavy bombers in the same way as we already have for fighters.

[Anaxogoras]

if thats a reply to my post, more complex engine managment isnt required. just the correct application of a time limit for WEP on heavy bombers in the same way as we already have for fighters.

Not a direct reply, just my general point of view on the issue.

[Baumer]

I agree that the B-17G does get to run at a slightly higher power setting than maximum continuous power, however it is not running on WEP continuously. Matter of fact it's not even capable of military power. In my off-line testing I was only able to get 46.5 manifold pressure not 47.5.

Another aspect that's over looked is that the engine model will not give proper continuous power at 20,000 feet. At 20K you should be able to pull 2300 RPM and 41.5 MAP (up to 35,200 feet) in game you can only get 38.5 MAP at 2300 RPM. So in essence the engine model is all ready limiting the speed at altitude.


Looking at Frame 1 and 2 the Luftwaffe have shot down a higher percentage of bombers than was ever achieved in any heavy bomber attack on Germany. If the 8th AF had this high of a loss rate the daylight bombing campaign would have been halted.

[Anaxogoras]

Looking at Frame 1 and 2 the Luftwaffe have shot down a higher percentage of bombers than was ever achieved in any heavy bomber attack on Germany. If the 8th AF had this high of a loss rate the daylight bombing campaign would have been halted.

At the expense of a historically disproportionate % of Luftwaffe fighters.  FSO pilots want to shoot something, even if it means death in the process, so the fact that bomber losses are higher than historical % isn't good evidence.

[Stoney]

At the expense of a historically disproportionate % of Luftwaffe fighters.  FSO pilots want to shoot something, even if it means death in the process, so the fact that bomber losses are higher than historical % isn't good evidence.

I believe Baumer's point is that when discussing this issue as a matter of balance within FSO, it is crystal clear that even with no artificial penalties placed on the bombers, the Axis is already able to shoot down large percentages of Allied bombers.  Let's not forget that this thread resulted from a request to bring better "balance" to bombers in FSO.

[Stoney]

(Image removed from quote.)

In my off-line testing I was only able to get 46.5 manifold pressure not 47.5.

I'm showing 48.5 and 2500 RPM available at takeoff, but that margin of error could simply be the mapping of the gauge.  That decreased to 47.5 and 2500 RPM by 10,000 feet, and 46.5 and 2500 RPM at 20,000 feet.

Obviously, per your chart, our B-17's are capable of flying at military, but not WEP as RTHolmes suggested.

[Baumer]

Thank you Stoney, that's correct I was merely using it as point to talk about balance.

A quick count of the logs for Frame 2, I came up with 129 Axis pilots either credited with a kill or an assist (approximately 55% of the axis forces) That's not counting the large number of players who were shot down without scoring a kill or an assist. So I think that the large majority of players are able to find action during the frame with out having to impose additional restrictions on the bombers.

[Anaxogoras]

That's a different argument.

[RTHolmes]

Setting	RPM	MP	duration
B-17G (AHII)
WEP	n/a	n/a	n/a
Mil	2500	47"	continuous
Normal	2300	38"	continuous
Max Cruise	2100	31"	continuous
B-17F (Operators Manual, 100 octane fuel)
Takeoff & Max Emergency	2500	46"	5min
Max Continuous	2300	38"	continuous
Economical Maximum	2100	31"	continuous
Recommended Cruising	1400-2000	29"	continuous
B-17G (Baumer's Chart, 100/130 octane fuel)
WEP	2500	54"	5min
Takeoff/Mil	2500	47.5"	5min
Normal/Max Continuous	2300	41.5"	continuous
Maximum Cruise	2100	31"	continuous
Min Consumption	1400	24"	continuous

cant argue with the numbers - the AH B-17G has unlimited WEP (in AH terms), or unlimited WEP/Takeoff and Mil/Takeoff and Max Emergency (in official data terms) power settings.

[Stoney]

cant argue with the numbers

Well, apparently you can.  First, those B-17F numbers aren't even relevant--I don't know why you posted them.  There is no WEP setting available for the B-17G in game--either that or I need to reinstall my game because I can't pull 54" on my client.  The B-17G in game has unlimited Takeoff/Military power (just like every fighter).

[RTHolmes]

1942 B-17F is very close to a B-17G, and used the same 1200hp Wright R-1820-97s. Relevant because the figures are from the official operators guide, not pulled out of thin air, and they coincide pretty well with Baumer's data, which I assume is also from official sources. I assume the slightly increased manifold pressure in Baumer's data is due to the slightly higher octane fuel.

Indeed we dont have WEP for the B-17G in AH, you will notice I have put n/a (not applicable) in these columns.

I thought the way I layed out the data illustrated my point pretty well. I'll make it crystal for you:

• Real B-17G were rated for 2500rpm/47" power settings for 5mins use only.
• AHII B-17G are rated for 2500rpm/47" power settings for unlimited use.

[Stoney]

I assume the slightly increased manifold pressure in Baumer's data is due to the slightly higher octane fuel.

100/130 Octane fuel is still 100 octane fuel, so no, its not due to the slightly higher octane rating.  It probably has to do with the fact that between the F model and G model B-17, someone decided that 54" and 2500 RPM was permissible for 5 minutes, even though it was the exact same powerplant.

• Real B-17G were rated for 2500rpm/47" power settings for 5mins use only.
• AHII B-17G are rated for 2500rpm/47" power settings for unlimited use.

Kind of like how a P-47N was rated for 2800rpm/54" for 5 minutes on takeoff, and yet you have unlimited use of 2800/54 in-game?