Author Topic: F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?  (Read 1334 times)

Sturm

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2001, 02:48:00 PM »
But have ya ever touched the 229?  We got to talk with the guys at the smithsonian, and I think they might know a thing or two about this plane.  Its funny but books are great talking to people who were there is even better.    

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Offline F4UDOA

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2001, 03:22:00 PM »
Karnak,

Yes I know I am being silly  

But I am just making a point about some of the rediculous guildlines some people will go to in order in include/exclude some A/C.

I happen to agree with your "production" model idea on what qualifies.

On a historic note however, it is amazing the progress that was reached in the US considering what passed for a fighter plane in 1940 in the US. Even though the F4U, P-38 and P-47 were drawing board or prototyped by 1941 they were still somewhat back burner projects. The US entered the war in 1942 in any real sense and in 2.5 years was producing P-51H's, F8F's, Super Corsairs and others. This was done from a distinct disadvantage in 1941 and a laughable joke in 1939 when Germany and Japan were building Me-109's and Zero's. Even Italy would have been considered superior in fighter technology at the time.

Stepping off of soapbox now  
<S>

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 04-20-2001).]

Squidzilla

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2001, 03:25:00 PM »
DO-335 did see combat, and the Gotha "err Horten"

DO-335 is suspected of running some night missions but no evidence exists they actually did. Most of the produced fuselages, in various state of assemby, never left the factory.

229 never saw production.

HE-162 is a yes. produced, deployed and operational..

AKSeaWulfe

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »
YOu mean the fuselage section at Silver Hill, Maryland? Nope... I only got a good walk around.

If you are going to tell me those guys at the Garber facility "were there", I'd have to say you strained too much while you were on the crapper and your brain fell out. Most of the guys restoring the planes there aren't over 50 years old. By my math that puts them being born around 1945.

Each time you type Sturm, you send me into a fit of curiousity.. are you just making this crap up so you seem like you know what you're talking about, or are you senial?
The Horton Go229 NEVER saw ANY combat, it NEVER got PAST the PROTOTYPE stage.

And if actually touching the aircraft gives you any knowledge on the plane and it's entire history, I sat in the cockpit of the Ar234 before they shipped it from the Garber facility to the National Air & Space Museum to put it on display... I must know EVERYTHING about it, huh?
-SW

Offline Karnak

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »
Sturm,
That is exactly why I believe that my standard is the only fair standard.  Pro-German players demand that the unit saw combat and pro-Russian, pro-American and pro-British people demand that some minimum number of units be produced before considering it valid.  Both of these methods are simply intended to get your favorite late war units while denying the comparable late war units of others.  Its just trying to setup circumstances so that they can say "Mine is bigger than yours".

BTW, FYI, Spitfire F.21s were in squadron service and sank a U-Boat.

Meteors were in squadron service, saw exstensive use against V-1s, then were posted to the continent in March 1945 and performed combat sweeps over German territory.  Is it their fault there wasn't enough of the Luftwaffe left for them to get kills of human piloted machines?

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Offline Toad

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »
F4UDOA,

...but ...But ...BUT ....BUT!!

Those are AMERICAN!

nofairnofairnofairnofairnofai rnofair!

   
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

AKSeaWulfe

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »
As a matter of fact.. I'll make it easy:
Plane type     Engine        Output  
Horten HVa     2xHirth HM60R  80HP each
Horten Vb      2xHirth HM60R  80HP each
Horten Vc      2xHirth HM60R  80HP each
Horten H VII   2xArgus AS10C  240HP each
Horten H IX V1 Research aircraft/Glider
Horten H IX V2 2xJumo 004B-2  900kg each*
Horten H IX V3 2xJumo 004B-2  900kg each*
Horten H IX V4  Never built
Horten H IX V5  Never built
Horten H IX V6 2xJumo 004B-2  900kg each*
Horten IX V7    Never built

The V2 crashed.
The V3 wasn't completed and was found without wings attached by the Allies.
The V6 was also found under construction by the Allies.

It was the Ho 229 until it was transfered to the Gotha Firm when it became the Go 229.

Curious about the sources? Oooo I am too, lets have a look:
"Horten Flying Wing in WWII" by H.P. Dabrowski

Hmmm not much there, lets see HIS sources:
T-2 Report "German Flying Wings Designed by HOrten Brothers", Wright Patterson AFB 1946
Working Discussion on the 229 Mock-up (13.10.1944)
DVL Short Report on the Testing of the Flying Characteristics of the Horten IX V-1 (Berlin-Adlershof, July 7, 1944)
Power Plant Installation in Go 229 (Horten), (V3+V5), March 7, 1945, Junkers Flugzeug- und Motorenwerke A.G.
Flight Log of Lt. Erwin Ziller via Dr. Jorg Ziller Correspondence with W. Horten, R. Horten, H.J. Meier, D. Myhra, K. Nickel, W. Radinger, R. Roeser, W. Rosler, H. Scheidhauer, P.F. Selinger, G. Sengfelder, R. Stadler.


Tell me one more time that the Horten Ho 229 saw combat, I need a really good laugh.
-SW



Offline ispar

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Karnak,

Yes I know I am being silly    

But I am just making a point about some of the rediculous guildlines some people will go to in order in include/exclude some A/C.

I happen to agree with your "production" model idea on what qualifies.

On a historic note however, it is amazing the progress that was reached in the US considering what passed for a fighter plane in 1940 in the US. Even though the F4U, P-38 and P-47 were drawing board or prototyped by 1941 they were still somewhat back burner projects. The US entered the war in 1942 in any real sense and in 2.5 years was producing P-51H's, F8F's, Super Corsairs and others. This was done from a distinct disadvantage in 1941 and a laughable joke in 1939 when Germany and Japan were building Me-109's and Zero's. Even Italy would have been considered superior in fighter technology at the time.

Stepping off of soapbox now    
<S>

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 04-20-2001).]

???Are you nuts? I don't know about the Corsair and T-Bolt, but the P-38 was definitely in full production by late '41, early '42. It wasn't a back burner project; by then war was clearly coming sooner or later, and the AAF needed a good fighter. Yeah, ironing out the many bugs that were still there at that point took awhile, but it was done the whole time that 38's were being produced and shipped out to squadrons.

BTW, the Lightning project started in 1936 or '37, as a limited series interceptor... it was a fairly big deal for the AAF.

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
lol Sank a U-Boot, technically true,yes, but be honest karnak thats not what we all think of as a U-Boot....

Offline illo

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2001, 02:33:00 AM »
   
Quote
I have a book on the Horton flying wing, the farthest it got was a prototype that crashed shortly after take off. I can scan in some pictures and information later tonite.
-SW

Not quite right. Go229 flew many test flighs.
Go229V1 trials began at Oranienburg in May 1944. Later in 1944 prototype was wrecked when when the pilot forgot to retract long incidence pole before landing. However handling charachteristics proved outstandingly excellent wich lead to test flights of Go229 V2 in January 1945. Takeoff required less than 450m and handling was superb. This aircraft crashed later in March in landing approach due to sudden engine failure.


(i think Go229V1 was used with Jumo004s when it crashed, ive read they tried powered flights first with V1. V2 was jet powered from the start and flew some months. Go229 never saw combat.period.)


Do335 however was as close of combat use as can be. So it could be possible in AH as well as p-51H.


Do335A-0 and Do335A-1 were in operational evaluation by Erprobungskommando 335 after September 1944. They tried to avoid combat until tactics were more evaluated. Anyhow they had to test in airspace filled with allied planes so encounters did happen. But i never heard record of any 335 claiming kill or being shot down.

He162, Me262 and Me163 were all operational aircraft wich saw combat.


Ba 349 was ready and 10 of those were put in launch positions at Kirchheim but shortly after destroyed by ground personnel when allied tanks approached airfield. It didnt see any combat. 36 Ba349A Natters were completed, no numbers about Ba349B.


Most of info is from the back of my head, actual numbers are mostly from "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" by David Donald Aerospace Publishing London/AIRtime publishing USA

ISBN 1 874023 27 1 /ISBN(usa) 1-880588-04-8

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-21-2001).]

Offline Bodhi

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2001, 08:25:00 AM »
The US DID NOT lead the war in prop design nor engine design.  You guys need to get the notion out of your heads that just because we won the war does not mean that we produced the best equipment.  Hell, look the sherman, the S class sub, and the corsair in a nutshell.  All were production nightmares, all were "revolutionary" at their precept, but proved utterly ordinary, if not dangerous in their performance.  Think of it this way, if we had lost the war, all would be listed undert a show titled History's Blunders.  Just because a product has pleasing astetics does not mean that they are a superior performer.

Take our (US) inline production.  We, came up with the allison design, which should have been scrapped in favor of the british produced and designed Rolls royce merlin, which was far superior in all aspects to the allison.  The germans also produced some of the BEst Radials as well as the Japanese.  HEll the Germans pioneered the first true independent liquid cooling for Radials, and got FANTASTIC results in their 190A and F series.

The Hog does not turn fight for hell, and had many engine probs at alt, mainly leaking mags that caused them to arc at altitude.  Fixed near the end of the war.

The sherman was a roman candle that burned avgas for its Pratt Engine and to incinerate itself and crew when hit by enemy fire.  Yep, an aircraft engine in a tank.

The S class subs, what else to say than a work in progress.

The -4 Hog, saw LIMITED deployment during WW2.  Thats why there are so few that ever made it into the civilian market.  Most were scrapped off the production line.

The only thing I have found to be curious in AH is the strength characteristics of the 38, F4u's, and F6.  
The F4u is built like a brick sh*t house.  And should take enormous amounts of airframe damage.  The ailerons are made of wood and phenolic.  That means that it will not distort when struck by a shell.  So chances are it will not be torn from the airframe when damaged.  Also, the structure within the aircraft is unique as well.  It incorporates alll metal construction with an early understanding of how to use a "honeycomb like" strength.  Quite strong and able to take damage like no tomorrow.  
The 38, it's limiting characteristics are the engines and compressability, but it's airframe is extremely strong.  This aircraft is of all metal construction throughout.  AH has yet to get the dive brakes and maneuver flaps effectively modeled on the 38, but hey, they did an excellent job otherwise.  Of note: the 38 dive brakes, are not dive brakes in the true sense, they are a pair of spoilers located on the mid outboard under wing surface.  When deployed, they create lift which in turn immediately forces the nose up on the aircraft.  The flaps on the 38 also generate a massive amount of lift, allowing the aircraft to turn at much slower speeds than intended.  All in all, an impressive aircraft, but inadequately powered with the allison.
The Hellcat is another member of the Grumman "IronWorks" line.  That name in itself gives you an idea of how strong it is.  And regardless of what half of you are going to argue, shot down more enemy aircraft than any other US plane.  It's only fault seemed to remain in speed, and that was compensated for as the design progressed.  Very impressive, extremely strong aircraft!  But as is the case, aestetically not pleasing and hence relegated to the backwaters of history and gaming as a general rule.  One thing I find to be interesting is that the Hellcat, which carries flaps dedicated to maneuver, curiously does not gain the benefit needed from them.  Other than that, impressisve aircraft.

Anyways enough of this, off to work.  BTW, this is not a line of b.s., I have a very thorough understanding of most warbirds as I rebuild them for a living.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

AKSeaWulfe

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by illo:
  Not quite right. Go229 flew many test flighs.
Go229V1 trials began at Oranienburg in May 1944. Later in 1944 prototype was wrecked when when the pilot forgot to retract long incidence pole before landing. However handling charachteristics proved outstandingly excellent wich lead to test flights of Go229 V2 in January 1945. Takeoff required less than 450m and handling was superb. This aircraft crashed later in March in landing approach due to sudden engine failure.


(i think Go229V1 was used with Jumo004s when it crashed, ive read they tried powered flights first with V1. V2 was jet powered from the start and flew some months. Go229 never saw combat.period.)

The V1 never really crashed, the forward nose gear was retracted because the airfield was too short to support this aircraft's landing speed and length. The V1 was the glider version and was used as a flight characteristics test bed, it was made of wood and steel tubing construction. The V2 crashed after a 45 minute checkride with Leutnant Ziller at the controls. The right engine experienced a flame out, but after that no one knows for sure what happened and what caused the crash. The V3 was going to be an unarmed, twin jet engine, single seat aircraft that was never completed.
-SW

Offline BUG_EAF322

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
I'm one off these "lotsa ordonance and ammo"
dweebs wow sounds very... advantage  

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2001, 02:54:00 PM »
Ispar,

There were 205 P-38's built in 1941 and 2 P-47's. Which is exactly my point about the limited production of A/C before the war. Just look at Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec.1941. Not exactly the mecca of fighter technology at the time. Also I would debate you on the turning ability of the F4U as well as the timeline of the fixes of the high alt ignition problems, however I am out of time.

Bodhi,

Many F4U-1 were scrapped at the end of hostilities but the F4U-4 didn't even go out of production. In fact it remained a front line Fighter/bomber through the Korean war. The Production of the F4U-5 didn't even begin until after the war. And the F4U-6 or AU-1 started production during the Korean conflict. In fact the F4U-4 is the highest produced model of the F4U in the entire production run.

Later

Offline Montezuma

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F4u1-c usage in WW2 /why to perk, why not to?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2001, 04:17:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by illo:

And are there any pilots that became ace in f4u1-c?
[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-20-2001).]

Jim Sweet of VMF-221, USS Bunker Hill, scored some victories in a F4U-1C over Okinawa in May of 1945, but he was an ace before then.

His story of that fight is in "Aces Against Japan II" by Eric Hammel.

An interesting point he makes is that his cannons tended to freeze up at 25K.