Brewster Buffalo

[-pjk--]

Nice to be invisable
Time to go bed anyway..  Just wondering, how in the earth you  besserwiser`s (most younger than my son birth 1988) can have the only TRUTH.
If my bad english makes you to ignore my messages, be happy, you are not 1st to do.

[Wmaker]

I'm out of town and drunk.

I'm not gonna start defending my position  (or the position of the FiAF) as my objectiveness is compromised by alcohol. I'll just say that it would do a lot of good for Moray to actually do some research and not settle with the first sources he can find...as he's very wrong on many accounts....which, I can explain when I sober up and actually start caring about this conversation again. Brewster shot down many Soviet "inline engined fighters" including La-5s and Yaks well after FiAF had the first Messerschmittis...

You are free to apologize for your ignorance Moray.

[Wmaker]

Well La-5 isn't an "inline engined fighter"!! 

Sorry about my slip up for everyone involved! My point still stands tho!

EDIT/ For the Finns....somehow it seems appropriate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSuB6O-SikU /EDIT

[Ex-jazz]

Holly Hulabalooo, Hitech!

We are getting The Brewster?

Mikä mekkala! 

[Ack-Ack]

If you look, you'll find that the vast majority of Soviet fighters in 1941 were monoplanes.  In fact, the Soviet Union moved to monoplanes with the I-16 far earlier than other nations did.

Also, the point also needs to be made is that the Soviet air force units in the north did not suffer the same fate as the other Soviet air force units in the south that were virtually destroyed by the Luftwaffe.  The Soviets were able to muster 700+ planes against the Finns.


ack-ack

[Lye-El]

You are free to apologize for your ignorance Moray.

Now that's funny right there..........

[Karnak]

Also, the point also needs to be made is that the Soviet air force units in the north did not suffer the same fate as the other Soviet air force units in the south that were virtually destroyed by the Luftwaffe.  The Soviets were able to muster 700+ planes against the Finns.


ack-ack

It bothers me a bit how many people believe the same 1930s BS about the Soviet and Japanese air forces despite the wealth of easily available material out there.

[hubsonfire]

Dug up a post for another thread, but since the whinging is growing more intense, might as well tack it up here. I had no idea what the Brewster was until I started reading the forums here. I know what he means now. From 03/2007

Brewster Buffalo – My sentimental choice to win.  For nearly 12 years, Finns have asked me for this.  Their passion for this plane is contagious.  I’ve wanted to give them one ever since I read Double Fighter Knight about 10 years ago.  That really gave me an appreciation of the FAF and the sturdiness of Finns in general.  Of course, now that I’ve said it’s my sentimental favorite, if it happens to win it will provoke more conspiracy theories than Patrick Ewing going to the Knicks in the first NBA draft lottery.

Not because it's awesome, or because it's going to change the MAs- but because, I guess you could say, it's a symbol of a people and war that most people don't know or care about in the least. It is a kind of contagious enthusiasm. Or maybe it's alcohol. Same thing really. 

[Masherbrum]

Which is what I said from the beginning.   It's just that a couple people felt like whining "because they didn't want the Brewster for selfish reasons." 

<<S>> to our Finnish friends. 

[TwinBoom]

Which is what I said from the beginning.   It's just that a couple people felt like whining "because they didn't want the Brewster for selfish reasons." 

<<S>> to our Finnish friends. 

i cant believe some peeps are complaining about a new aircraft ...................

[texastc316]

oh come on, sure you can

[Karnak]

i cant believe some peeps are complaining about a new aircraft ...................

But it isn't the A-26 or He111 so they feel disappointed.  No consideration of all the guys who waited years for this one and who have contributed so much to the game.

[Ack-Ack]

Ok, so other than threatening to kill my cartoon plane, how have you refuted my point again?  That being the -239 flew against even more inferior aircraft, ie Biplanes and even more inferior monoplanes?   

It really shows that you are making comments about something without really knowing about the subject.  I know, this has been pointed out many times already in this thread but you insist on making the above comments regarding the quality of Soviet aircraft used in The Winter War.

This is what Robert L. Shaw (Mouse and the author of the fighter pilots Bible, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering) that breaks down the air war during The Winter War.  Very interesting read and totally blows away your argument.  

The Winter War, although it lasted less than four months, illustrates some important points regarding air combat. One of the most important is that the numbers of aircraft on each side do not tell the whole story. In this conflict, the Soviets enjoyed an approximate 10-1 advantage in aircraft, but LOST aircraft in combat at roughly the same ratio. Still, they ultimately won the war. As we have seen in previous air wars, particularly in WW-I, quantity is typically much better correlated with the final outcome of a conflict than with aircraft exchange ratios. If the side with superior numbers is willing and able to make good on its losses, it can accomplish its goals in support of the overall effort and eventually achieve victory. The price, however, may be great.

In this conflict, the Soviets had the overwhelming advantage of numbers, and at least parity, if not a slight edge in quality with respect to fighter designs for most of the war. In addition, they had the advantage of holding both the strategic and tactical initiative in most cases. This usually allowed them to benefit from the element of surprise, concentration of numbers during a given engagement, and an initial altitude advantage. Another plus was the combat experience, at least at higher command levels, of the Russians in Spain and the Far East. This latter advantage was more than offset, however, by an inefficient command structure, low morale, and a general lack of experience among aircrews during much of the conflict.

The Finns, on the other hand, could also claim rough parity in fighter quality, a much higher overall level of aircrew training, high morale, and a more efficient and effective fighter employment doctrine. Also, as they typically were based much closer to the air action, the FAF could generate more combat sorties per aircraft than the Soviets, who were forced to waste much more time just transiting back and forth to the combat arena. This factor has a powerful force-multiplying effect on the "density" of aircraft that can be engaged in combat at any time with a given total number of aircraft. Operating mostly over friendly territory, the Finns were also less likely to lose downed aircrew; and those that survived returned to combat much wiser, with the effect of increasing the overall level of aircrew experience over time.

The general availability of radios to the FAF was another important factor. Finnish Fokkers were normally equipped with indigenous P-12-17/1 radios. Flight leaders usually had very low-power transmitters with a range of only about 3 mi for coordinating within their flights, while the wingmen generally had only receivers. A system of trained air observers had been established before the Winter War, using telephones to call the squadron headquarters, which were equipped with radios for notifying airborne fighters. The telephone system was not well developed, however, which often resulted in significant sighting delays. Even though the Finns did not have a very effective air-direction system during the Winter War, they were often able to receive engagement and sighting reports that were valuable in allowing them to concentrate their limited forces where they were most needed.

Although it is often dangerous to draw sweeping conclusions from limited air conflicts, the Winter War illustrates many critical principles that will be reinforced throughout the history of air combat.

The Winter War by Robert L. Shaw

ack-ack

[Masherbrum]

But it isn't the A-26 or He111 so they feel disappointed.  No consideration of all the guys who waited years for this one and who have contributed so much to the game.

Karnak, you and I don't always seem to see eye to eye (human nature), but I give the above a "damn right".   I'm happy for the LLv32, LLv34 and any other Finnish squadron we have.   

[E25280]

It was withdrawn from US service in less than 6 months combat, and only one engagement in US hands. This being a US reeling from loss after loss, and scrambling to procure every combat aircraft it possibly could.  But, we shipped our remaining Buffalos to Finland...

For the sake of piling on . . .
http://www.warbirdforum.com/faf.htm

And so 44 Brewsters were bought in 16th of December 1939,  . . . First planes left New York harbour in 13th of January 1940, and the last planes arrived Sweden in 13th of March.

Kind of hard to have "shipped off our remaining Buffalos to Finland" when the Finns purchased them almost two full years before Pearl Harbor.