JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...

[Krusty]

Make no mistakes, I'll take a HO now and then. Comes from flying the 190A for years.

As for "it's the pilot, not the plane" -- IMO that's ego talking. Put a decent pilot in a P-40B and a worse pilot in a spit16, and 99 times out of 100 the spit will eat the P-40B for lunch 6 ways from Sunday.

I'm a firm advocate that the plane amplifies or dulls the pilot's natural abilities. It's neither one nor the other, but a combination of both pilot and plane capabilities. Knowing jester (hah!) let's just compare the planes as-is, hehehehe.

[CAP1]

Make no mistakes, I'll take a HO now and then. Comes from flying the 190A for years.

As for "it's the pilot, not the plane" -- IMO that's ego talking. Put a decent pilot in a P-40B and a worse pilot in a spit16, and 99 times out of 100 the spit will eat the P-40B for lunch 6 ways from Sunday.

I'm a firm advocate that the plane amplifies or dulls the pilot's natural abilities. It's neither one nor the other, but a combination of both pilot and plane capabilities. Knowing jester (hah!) let's just compare the planes as-is, hehehehe.

i'm on the low side of average. i was in a spit5 or 9...can't remember which......vs 1duke1 in a p40. i had alt, and speed.........i lost. 2 or 3 times if i recall. 

[Soulyss]

I think the big problem with 90% of the HO arguments is just a differing opinion of what constitutes a HO and what does not.  Most seem to boil down to a semantics argument (same with picking, vulching, ganging, etc.). Personally a front quarter shot to me is different than head on attack.  To me a head on implies that both parties can get a gun solution, if I work inside of the turn in a fight and get the angles for a shot that the other plane cannot then that's a fair shot and not one to complain about.  I generally dislike firing on the first merge although there are exceptions to that policy, typically they're environmental things like being outnumbered or in some other situation of desperation, hell I've done it from time to time out of sheer frustration at one thing or another.  The big exception to that little rule is the blind under the nose attack on a higher con which I just love, when you pull up under someone who can't see that you're there and hit them with a front quarter or bottom shot. I just call that being sneaky.

[Ack-Ack]

for me it's better than giving the other guy an opportunity to get behind me...

If you knew some ACM then you wouldn't have to rely on head on shots and you too would be able to 'saddle up' on someone's six like the other guys seem to easily do to you.


ack-ack

[Saurdaukar]

No offense but, I don't see the problem...he opens fire, do a little jig and light him up...but then I'm seeing a lot of people here that view HOs as noob tactics...for me it's better than giving the other guy an opportunity to get behind me...

It is a noob tactic.  However, I confess I do welcome the attempt.

When you line up nose-to-nose with an EAC, you are immediately communicating to him that you don't understand the very elementary concepts of the lead turn and vertical/horizontal separation.  Once this is clear to the EAC, he will quickly, and with a high degree of accuracy, conclude that your understanding of "Step 2" is equally lacking.

That being the case, should the other individual have some idea of what he's doing, you will have immediately placed yourself at a tangible disadvantage.  His aircraft will be in a better state to assume the offensive position immediately following the merge.  In a best case scenario for you, your options will be to run, to run or to run.  As you may have guessed, this is why the Channel 200 text buffer is filled with whines about HO'ing and running.

This is all determined, digested and filed away by the EAC driver before you've even rested your index finger on the trigger.  When you smack the WEP key and begin to steady your hand in preparation for the joust, he is already at least three steps ahead of you and has visualized the exact moment, 15 seconds from right now, where he will have gained a firing solution and you'll be dead.

Once you learn how to maneuver your aircraft so as to fully exploit your advantages in any Plane X vs. Plane Y contest, you will quickly come to the conclusion that the practice of leaving the result of a fight, which you spent ten minutes finding, up to chance and two seconds of "fun," is a poor investment of your time.

[gyrene81]

LOL...think we hijacked this thread.  


Looking around these forums it appears as though many of the "adults" playing these online flight sims (especially those most active in the forums) live just to complain about someone doing something they think is "lame" in one of the arenas...then the crowd mentality sets in...lots of chiming in "yeah that's lame" from people who had no opinion in the first place...(not gonna mention the trolls with their "see rule #...)...

Hence the first post in this thread...I suppose Jester complained about losing a HO...response should have been, "oh well, you took a chance and lost, fly smarter next time"...then move on.

HO, pick, vulch, whatever...as long as the person isn't doing some sort of warping or cheating...a kill is a kill.

[TonyJoey]

(Image removed from quote.)

 

[Shuffler]

HO, pick, vulch, whatever...as long as the person isn't doing some sort of warping or cheating...a kill is a kill.

The warp is the only one you mentioned that is beyond the users control.

..... a kill is a kill is exactly what the new folks look for. Most of the folks that have been here awhile look for the fight. Get good at the fight and the kills will come. When you win a fight then you can say you actually did something.

[gyrene81]

If you knew some ACM then you wouldn't have to rely on head on shots and you too would be able to 'saddle up' on someone's six like the other guys seem to easily do to you.
ack-ack

Must have me mistaken for someone else...I don't "rely" on anything...but I will take whatever shot is presented to me.

It is a noob tactic.  However, I confess I do welcome the attempt.

When you line up nose-to-nose with an EAC, you are immediately communicating to him that you don't understand the very elementary concepts of the lead turn and vertical/horizontal separation.  Once this is clear to the EAC, he will quickly, and with a high degree of accuracy, conclude that your understanding of "Step 2" is equally lacking.

That being the case, should the other individual have some idea of what he's doing, you will have immediately placed yourself at a tangible disadvantage.  His aircraft will be in a better state to assume the offensive position immediately following the merge.  In a best case scenario for you, your options will be to run, to run or to run.  As you may have guessed, this is why the Channel 200 text buffer is filled with whines about HO'ing and running.

This is all determined, digested and filed away by the EAC driver before you've even rested your index finger on the trigger.  When you smack the WEP key and begin to steady your hand in preparation for the joust, he is already at least three steps ahead of you and has visualized the exact moment, 15 seconds from right now, where he will have gained a firing solution and you'll be dead.

Once you learn how to maneuver your aircraft so as to fully exploit your advantages in any Plane X vs. Plane Y contest, you will quickly come to the conclusion that the practice of leaving the result of a fight, which you spent ten minutes finding, up to chance and two seconds of "fun," is a poor investment of your time.

No offense but there must be a lot of people who don't have the "elementary" part down...

[Vudak]

Gyrene, you can take it or leave it, but you've received sound advice.

[FX1]

Two vets should understandd what a HO is.

Jester has been around for a long time..

[lazydog]

No offense but, I don't see the problem...he opens fire, do a little jig and light him up...but then I'm seeing a lot of people here that view HOs as noob tactics...for me it's better than giving the other guy an opportunity to get behind me...

thats a crazy way to think if thats all its about in this game i dont think we would have 5 to 10 year vets in this game .... well simple no fun here....remember "THE FUN IS THE FIGHT"win or loose

[Wreked]

Newbies would do well to heed these "should do's/how do's" - Dicta Bloecke. Over 95 years old and still relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

I think the difference in what constitutes acceptable play is split in relation to which type of player you are :

"arcade" style players - get me to the action as fast as I can - this is some sort of war of honour/knights jousting etc etc - fair play enters in here in a big way.

AND

"sim" style players - lets re-enact as best we can the RL situation as it occured - no RL airforce let "fair" enter into the equation - get em before they had a chance to defend themselves - get out before things get bad - always bring your bird home etc etc. (BTW HO's were a rarity because of the very real chance of a death dealing collision)

...and  rarely will the two styles meet in attitudes about play. <shrug> something we gotta live with eh!

[Larry]

i'm on the low side of average. i was in a spit5 or 9...can't remember which......vs 1duke1 in a p40. i had alt, and speed.........i lost. 2 or 3 times if i recall. 

That's because 1Duke1 is one of those damn cheaters when he flies the P40E.

[Krusty]

Boelke's rules are outdated even in WW2, but still useful. Nowadays (modern times) they are not very useful at all.

However, I would like to point newbies to rules 3 and 4 of Boelke's Dicta. The rest are not so important.

In fact, in this game, only attacking from a position of advantage is considered "weak" or "lame" (see "picking"). Some of the best fights I've had in the MA were surviving bad odds being bounced by 4 planes and shooting 3 of them down.

In fact, another one of his rules is wrong as well. When you start an attack, it's also quite wise to know when the heck to get out of it! If you always follow every fight through you'll always end up dead. Know when to get out, keep an eye out for the 5 reinforcements the enemy has coming in from the stratosphere, and head home before they engage you.


My point basically is, while there is some wisdom to be taken from Boelke, if newbies follow his rules we get inexperienced vets that never learn how to mix things up.