Author Topic: Kamikaze Attack at T+117  (Read 1640 times)

Offline ImADot

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« on: July 18, 2009, 11:39:26 AM »
Wow, I've heard of devotion to one's emperor, but holy smokes. 

I fly FSO with the 325th Checkertails and we annihilated the squad of B5N's shortly before T+60; not one got through to CV25.  We capped the CV for the next hour with no contacts.  With only 5-10 minutes left in the frame our scouts started home and we got into the recovery pattern to call it a night.  Five minutes before the end of the frame, we spot a low scout and a minute later we find the rest of the zekes coming in 15k+.  We did our best to get them, but all they did was dive down, pickle their bombs at 2k and auger into the CV.

The CV was lightly damaged, but a few of us were caught still airborne trying to land when the call came out that the logs have been closed.  What was that squad thinking?  Apparently not bringing home their planes.
My Current Rig:
GigaByte GA-X99-UD4 Mobo w/ 16Gb RAM
Intel i7 5820k, Win7 64-bit
NVidia GTX 970 4Gb ACX 2.0
Track IR, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Pedals

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 11:44:03 AM »
If you don't have time to get back to your own boat, why not?

sand

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 11:45:45 AM »
Wow, I've heard of devotion to one's emperor, but holy smokes. 

I fly FSO with the 325th Checkertails and we annihilated the squad of B5N's shortly before T+60; not one got through to CV25.  We capped the CV for the next hour with no contacts.  With only 5-10 minutes left in the frame our scouts started home and we got into the recovery pattern to call it a night.  Five minutes before the end of the frame, we spot a low scout and a minute later we find the rest of the zekes coming in 15k+.  We did our best to get them, but all they did was dive down, pickle their bombs at 2k and auger into the CV.

The CV was lightly damaged, but a few of us were caught still airborne trying to land when the call came out that the logs have been closed.  What was that squad thinking?  Apparently not bringing home their planes.

I say bonus points for authenticity. :D
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline TUK

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1360
      • 13MPG
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2009, 12:40:28 PM »
Thats pretty cool i think. Poor guys got stuck in b5ns and all died. Got back together and went kamikazie on ya.. You got your kills, and they died hoborably, twice!   :salute
CO WD40 (FSO)
Death From Above (DFA) - Main Arena




Offline AKKuya

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2009, 02:13:26 PM »
Just when you think that the night is over.  Land your plane.  Head down to the O'club. 


WHAM!!!  The enemy makes a late night surprise Kamikaze attack.

 :salute to those who never give up and never surrender!!!
Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline daddog

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15082
      • http://www.332nd.org
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2009, 04:39:33 PM »
Wow. They just dove in and killed themselves?

That hurts the Axis score.

Of course if they figured the CV was just about dead and knew they 'might' be able to sink it I can see heading back for a one way trip, but I would have dropped my eggs, extended and then ditched a few miles out before the logs closed. Some Admin's might count a death as more compared to a ditch. Don't know.

Our squad made it back with a couple SBD's and 3 F6F's. We considered going to back to sink the CV, but we we not sure we could sink it. If I had known for sure we could sink it we probably would have headed back for the one way trip because we would not have had time to return a 2nd time. We opted to save the value of our aircraft and not go back on a gamble.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline Viper61

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 585
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2009, 05:07:48 PM »
ImaDot generally has it correct on the timing of the attack to CV 25.  I disagree with some of above replies.  Kamikaze style attacks are for the MA and have no place in the FSO.  "Rolling Thunder" was the squad that hit CV 25 with about 10 minutes left in the game with several of their pilots killed between H+115 and H+119 according to the logs.  The closest IJN CV was "probably 75 - 100 miles away at that point.

Its one thing to up and attempt a strike to a heavily defended objective and know that high casualties are going to be part of the price.  In this case there was no hope of the squad returning in time to land.  And to plan it that way isn't in the spirit of the FSO.  Again MA style tactics.

In my opinion 2 critical factors failed on the AXIS side last night.  The Squad CO planned and commanded the "One way mission".  The AXIS CIC did not call or enforce a "General RTB" for his late frame strike packages to get them back aboard his CV's by H+120.  

In the 6 years I have been apart of the FSO events this is the first time I have even witnesses something like this.  This is the first time I can remember that the 325th every landed after H+120.  The FSO is about adding a factor of realism to a sim game combining it with larger formations and command and control.  If the FSO begins to revert to nothing more than MA style tactics then what is best about the FSO will be lost and attendance will suffer.

Additionally what happened afterward was that 4X (CM) refused my request for a 5 minute extension to land our aircraft on CV 25.  The 325th lost 3 AC due to this according to the logs.  All of the 325th AC were down and towered by H+125.  Not my plan to be flying past H+120 but forced into a fight over my own CV with no time remaining.  We had no choice but to fight and then land as quickly as we could which we did.  I don't believe that the 325th VFG or the ALLIED side should be penalized with "lost" AC because we were being attacked at H+119 while trying to land at our CV.

Enough on what happened.

What I would like to see from the CM's on this issue is a change to the scoring system in which a very high point value penalty for any AC still in the air after H+120.  Similar to what the CM's have done to control max altitude Restrictions by placing a hurricane force down draft at specific altitudes.  Personally I believe that a -100 point penalty for every AC still in the air after H+121 would fix this issue as no one AC can cause that much "positive point" damage before losing -100.  Also adding more positive points for every AC safely landed before H+120 would help as well.  And in the case of entire squad in violation of the H+120 rule such as what happened last night........  I leave that up to the CM's to enforce and keep this opinion to myself.

Viper 61
Ops Officer
325th VFG

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 05:14:43 PM »
What I would like to see from the CM's on this issue is a change to the scoring system in which a very high point value penalty for any AC still in the air after H+120.  Similar to what the CM's have done to control max altitude Restrictions by placing a hurricane force down draft at specific altitudes.  Personally I believe that a -100 point penalty for every AC still in the air after H+121 would fix this issue as no one AC can cause that much "positive point" damage before losing -100.  Also adding more positive points for every AC safely landed before H+120 would help as well.  And in the case of entire squad in violation of the H+120 rule such as what happened last night........  I leave that up to the CM's to enforce and keep this opinion to myself.

If that were the case last night, I'd have just pulled the plug the moment we lost our carrier. I flew for over 45 minutes just trying to get to the nearest CV and still missed it after trying to complete our mission objectives. If you're near the center of the line, you've got options. Out at the flanks, there's nothing.

I was just ten miles out from my tertiary divert when the CM closed the logs.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 05:16:42 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Strip

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3319
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 05:15:21 PM »
T+1:19:59....

Enter Enter Enter....

.ef

No planes in flight same effect.


Offline Viper61

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 585
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 05:16:24 PM »
Daddog:

  No the second strike to CV 25 was to a "None damaged CV" as their first attack failed about 20 miles from CV25 at H+60.  The second attack was with about 15-20 Zero's hauling ords (mini bombs).  There was no hope of the sinking CV25 with the ord package the zero's carry or with the numbers they had even if the ack had been turned off and the Air CAP gone at CV 25.

  Your call was right on to land and tower out.  Perserve your pilots and AC and not restrike if you can't make it back in time.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 06:12:58 PM »
I'm sorry but I'm aware of more then one occasion where 2nd strikes were ordered and launched with no chance to RTB. I've also landed more then once while a CV or field was still under attack at the end of the event. That doesnt mean the attack made sense but it certainly isnt against the rules as I understand them...

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 06:21:23 PM »
I didn't make it back in time after the first strike.  :eek:
sand

Offline Dustoff2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2009, 06:33:32 PM »
 :salute Viper,

First you need to ask. Where any rules broken? Then you need to ask, did they follow orders.

We where tasked to hit 2 cv's with B5n's. Before T+60. I think that says enough right there.

Our orders where as follows.

up b5n's with bombs. follow white line. Target 6 and 5. hit one and rearm at 16 if needed, if you have load left proceed to 5.you get a second life in plane of choice so if your targets are dead up a a6m loaded and regroup as defense or watch for text of valid targets otherwise regroup and keep hitting your target.

We made our best efforts to hit both cv's minutes before T+60.


We sunk a cv last week with only 7 good hits with our zero's. So when we left to hit CV25(target 5) with 12 zeros , we felt we could get the job done. CV25 was the closest target to the nearest cv to up from.  Not sure where you get your 15-20 numbers, but war does get a bit foggy at times. Most of our order didn't make sense, but we followed them. I think most will agree here we got handed some crappy orders so we made the best of it. Did we break any rules, I think not.

 :salute


AKDust
Arabian Knights

Offline Dadsguns

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1979
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2009, 07:08:38 PM »
I'm sorry but I'm aware of more then one occasion where 2nd strikes were ordered and launched with no chance to RTB. I've also landed more then once while a CV or field was still under attack at the end of the event. That doesnt mean the attack made sense but it certainly isnt against the rules as I understand them...

 :aok


"Your intelligence is measured by those around you; if you spend your days with idiots you seal your own fate."

Offline Bannor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
Re: Kamikaze Attack at T+117
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2009, 08:57:56 PM »
I have been in many many FSO's and actually commanded perhaps 2, the latter being one. Every squad saw how much time was left in the frame and knew without me saying when they should probobally make the return trip home for survival. We lost a couple of our Cvs and A few squads were unable to return because of fuel and or time. The squad that went kamakazi did so on their own accord. My C.O. drew up the plans with some input from me and I followed that plan as best as I could. Personaly, I would rather ditch than die. And there have been many times where I knew we could not possibly make it back to base because of distance and fuel, so we made the best of it. If you want realism in a FSO, you got a dose of it with the kamakazi attack because that is what happened. I don't want to do it, I didn't want anyone to do it, but it happened and so be it. For that matter, any damage that a plane could incure should be included, if you want it to be real. If you look back into history, we shouldn't have done nearly as well as we did. I think we have some real good tacticians in this event and occasionaly even I shine a bit. I'm sorry for anyone who didn't understand what we were doing. I was hoping to get on this over last weekend, but the objectives came out late. Not excusing anything, it was just a factor. There was even a squad who never got the orders we sent and at the last minute while I'm trying to co-ordinate everyone else and my squad, I have to tell them what they have to do. It comes with the territory and I'll take the blame for the outcome if there is blame to be had! But I thought my team did an exceptional job. And I think the allies did well with their late strikes. I'm looking forward to frame 3.

 :salute
Destiny brought you here, now FATE will deal with your six!

Damn, we're in a tight spot!