Wirbelwind gun modeling

[Krusty]

Since the "uber-fake-wirb" was introduced into AH, it has claimed something on the order of 95% of all GV kills.

It's totally BS, in that any ping from any angle on any fighter/attack plane can kill or disable it (I've been brought down millions of times by lucky shots from Wirbs).

The issue at hand is the turret traverses way too fast, meaning a Wirb can attack one target, and with its super-faster-than-historical firing rate kill the target before it's released its bombs/ord, and then turn around in a full 180 and kill a second target before IT can kill the wirble either.

HTC needs to remove secondary fire, and just have the top guns fire for 20 rounds, then stop, and the bottom guns fire for 20 rounds. The end result is historical firing rates, and 1/2 as much BS instant-killing rounds in the air.

THEN they need to address the turret speed.

Firing rate is a high priority though. It's not about "this is low on the agenda for GVs" because it's a high impact on everything air-related, base-take related, rolling-to-enemy-fields-to-vulch-planes-on-runways related (and yes, many players do just that). It unbalances gameplay, IMO.

[moot]

Never thought I'd correct Moot on this...

WWII Combat sim

I stand corrected.

[Dream Child]

Since the "uber-fake-wirb" was introduced into AH, it has claimed something on the order of 95% of all GV kills.

It's totally BS, in that any ping from any angle on any fighter/attack plane can kill or disable it (I've been brought down millions of times by lucky shots from Wirbs).

The issue at hand is the turret traverses way too fast, meaning a Wirb can attack one target, and with its super-faster-than-historical firing rate kill the target before it's released its bombs/ord, and then turn around in a full 180 and kill a second target before IT can kill the wirble either.

HTC needs to remove secondary fire, and just have the top guns fire for 20 rounds, then stop, and the bottom guns fire for 20 rounds. The end result is historical firing rates, and 1/2 as much BS instant-killing rounds in the air.

THEN they need to address the turret speed.

Firing rate is a high priority though. It's not about "this is low on the agenda for GVs" because it's a high impact on everything air-related, base-take related, rolling-to-enemy-fields-to-vulch-planes-on-runways related (and yes, many players do just that). It unbalances gameplay, IMO.

After looking at one of the gun sets in real life, I'm not sure you could even maintain 2 guns firing. The reloads would have to happen in something like 3 seconds, and they would have to be continuous between the two guns the reloader was responsible for.

[Lusche]

After looking at one of the gun sets in real life, I'm not sure you could even maintain 2 guns firing. The reloads would have to happen in something like 3 seconds, and they would have to be continuous between the two guns the reloader was responsible for.

With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.

But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future.

The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... 

[Saxman]

With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.

But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future.

The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... 

At the very least it would make baiting with one plane while #2 hits from the opposite side a feasible strategy.

[Dream Child]

With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.

But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future.

The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... 

Well, lets do some math then. As modeled in AH, the Wirbelwind can fire all 3200 rounds in about 1 minute, 47 seconds (stopwatch said 1:46:75, so it's at least close), or 3200 rounds in 107 seconds. 3200 rounds divided by 107 seconds is 34.58 rounds per second for all 4 cannon. As there are 4 cannon, that means every cannon is shooting at 34.58/4, or 8.65 rounds per second. At 8.65 rounds per second, you will empty a 20 round clip in (20 rounds)/(8.65 rounds per second), or 2.31 seconds. That means either the reloader has to load a clip in 2.31 seconds, or, if you're correct about the 9 seconds to empty a clip, the cycle rate is equal to 80 rounds per 9 seconds for all 4 cannon (8.89 rounds per second for all 4), and the Wirbelwind guns in AH are cycling 4 times too fast.

If what you say is correct about firing rate, then the firing rate should be cut by 1/4 even before talking about the reloading issue, so effective firing rate should be 1/8 of what it is now.

[Lusche]

Well, lets do some math then.

Good thing you did.. I simply did my math wrong 

However, it's still possible to change a mag in 2-3 seconds, as the loader was sitting right next to the gun with spare mags right at his hands.

Here's some footage of Flakvierling 38 (Wirbelwinds gun) in action:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ekYgGfTWY&hl=de

short Wirbelwind clip:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6889510957903540822&ei=pKFnSqXwOdTM-AaozqFf&hl=de

[moot]

o/t bit : 1'45" in the first vid shows brush camo.. How about that as perk loadout.. A choice from any of AH's greenery stuck onto GVs, in historical patterns.

[Dream Child]

...However, it's still possible to change a mag in 2-3 seconds, as the loader was sitting right next to the gun with spare mags right at his hands.

Any way you look at it, the firing rate, as modeled here, is too fast. If the loaders can realistically get the clips changed in less than 2.5 seconds, then at least cut the firing rate in half, each gun set alternating it's fire.

[Lusche]

Any way you look at it, the firing rate, as modeled here, is too fast. If the loaders can realistically get the clips changed in less than 2.5 seconds, then at least cut the firing rate in half, each gun set alternating it's fire.

But as already pointed out, other weapons would/should suffere from loading times too, so you would have adjust code for  everyone of them... that's why I don't see it to be changed in anyway soon.

[Dream Child]

But as already pointed out, other weapons would/should suffere from loading times too, so you would have adjust code for  everyone of them... that's why I don't see it to be changed in anyway soon.

This is relatively few in number, and none near as blatant as the Wirbelwind, but if it's an unrealistic firing rate, it should be fixed.

[alskahawk]

 Forget the Wirbly I want the two 90mm ack Gun I saw at Aberdeen. That should take down pesky flying machines!

[Enker]

Forget the Wirbly I want the two 90mm ack Gun I saw at Aberdeen. That should take down pesky flying machines!

By the Lords of Kobol, that is the size of a grapefruit! That is bigger than my fist! Are they explosive? If 20mm cannons make fist sized holes, what kind of holes would they make?

[Keiler]

At the very least fix the gun traverse. IIRC there's also almost NO recoil in the WW (even though it's modeled in the Ostwind and M16) so aim is unrealistically accurate during sustained fire.

I am not really sure if that matters on that specific vehicle. Its only a 20mm, this calibre is called "Spatzen FlaK" (Sparrow FlaK, after the tiny bird) by german tankers/FlaKers until today, which is mounted on a fullsized tank chassis, which is rock solid compared to any vehicle on wheels/halftracks. 37mm has considerably more recoil than that also, which should answers the Ostwind question.

Regards
Matt

[frank3]

By the Lords of Kobol, that is the size of a grapefruit! That is bigger than my fist! Are they explosive? If 20mm cannons make fist sized holes, what kind of holes would they make?

I don't think grapefruits would make big holes in any aircraft. Then again, they might've stuffed 'em with explosives