F3 view

[Motherland]

Thats just precious shreck. Flying them nintendo style and then coming here to complain about it. Might as well grab some Lancs and go dive bomb GVs with em.

Tonight I saw some clown doing the Soul Train act with JUs. I dont know who it was. We had some Lanc-stuka heros come at us ay a GV base attack. Almost always its Bish. But Ive seen a few of our rook kiddies do it.

Boy i wish they'd fix the flight model of these bombers so they can only be flown like bombers.

The Ju 88 was a pretty robust aircraft... it was designed to be able to be used as a divebomber, and was adapted to the nightfighter role later in the war. I don't doubt its capabilities.
If it had an MG/FF up front instead of the MG17 it'd be a fun fighter... but the MG17 just isn't enough IMO.

[Widewing]

Well, the Ju 88 is very maneuverable for a bomber, but the Boston III flies circles around it with complete ease. 2bighorn and I spent an evening dueling with the two, and the Boston was so superior it wasn't ever a real contest.

As to F3 view.... If your fighters are being shot down by maneuvering bombers, it's easy to blame F3 view. However, the reality is that you truly stink. Running up a big kill total in the A-20G, for example, is a result of beating players who could suck a baseball through a garden hose. The fact is that the A-20G is inferior to virtually every fighter. It is good enough, however, that a skilled pilot will beat the average player without much stress. Much of the A-20's perceived advantage is that few players expect it to maneuver fight them. It holds E well, has good flaps and a gentle stall. Combine that with 6 guns packed into the nose and you have an aircraft that is very lethal should someone find themselves in front of one.

Look at the SBD and TBM. Two .50 cal MGs is adequate if you can saddle up briefly. Both will out-turn the bulk of the fighter set. A TBM has the same turn radius as a Hurricane. The SBD is even better. However, they are little more than helpless in a vertical fight. Yet, the average player will not think in three dimensions, but try to turn with them and pay the price.

F3 view allows a pilot to see what he's blind to. It simulates having other crew members to spot and report the enemy. It improves SA.

It does not improve your flying skills. It does not improve your aim. Sucky pilots using F3 are still sucky pilots who happen to see better behind them. That's all, nothing more.

So, to repeat the key point... If you are having trouble with maneuvering bombers, the problem is you, not the bomber's F3 view.


My regards,

Widewing

[Lusche]

Thats just precious shreck. Flying them nintendo style and then coming here to complain about it.

The Ju 88 was often flown "Nintendo style" for real. Unlike Allied bombers, planes like Ju 88, Do 217 etc had often to rely on heavy maneuvering to evade enemy attacks after steath & speed failed, not formation flying and heavy firepower. Especially on the Western front after BoB, when single German bombers did fly attacks  on Great Britain under adverse weather conditions.
If you read combat reports, you will notice German medium bombers doing split-s & similar maneuvers to evade attacking Spitfires or Mosquitoes. As already noticed the 88 was originally designed to be a divebomber, and thus very durable & capable of doing such moves.
That we may see rather "extreme" maneuvering much more often in here is not necessarily a result of faulty modeling that has to be fixed, but of a totally different combat environment.

[Masherbrum]

Well, the Ju 88 is very maneuverable for a bomber, but the Boston III flies circles around it with complete ease. 2bighorn and I spent an evening dueling with the two, and the Boston was so superior it wasn't ever a real contest.

As to F3 view.... If your fighters are being shot down by maneuvering bombers, it's easy to blame F3 view. However, the reality is that you truly stink. Running up a big kill total in the A-20G, for example, is a result of beating players who could suck a baseball through a garden hose. The fact is that the A-20G is inferior to virtually every fighter. It is good enough, however, that a skilled pilot will beat the average player without much stress. Much of the A-20's perceived advantage is that few players expect it to maneuver fight them. It holds E well, has good flaps and a gentle stall. Combine that with 6 guns packed into the nose and you have an aircraft that is very lethal should someone find themselves in front of one.

Look at the SBD and TBM. Two .50 cal MGs is adequate if you can saddle up briefly. Both will out-turn the bulk of the fighter set. A TBM has the same turn radius as a Hurricane. The SBD is even better. However, they are little more than helpless in a vertical fight. Yet, the average player will not think in three dimensions, but try to turn with them and pay the price.

F3 view allows a pilot to see what he's blind to. It simulates having other crew members to spot and report the enemy. It improves SA.

It does not improve your flying skills. It does not improve your aim. Sucky pilots using F3 are still sucky pilots who happen to see better behind them. That's all, nothing more.

So, to repeat the key point... If you are having trouble with maneuvering bombers, the problem is you, not the bomber's F3 view.


My regards,

Widewing

Contradictory statements. 

[Delirium]

The F3 view is a little too all encompassing, I wish it was a little less limited without completely castrating the bombers to a gunners view. The only fix I can think of is to make a padlock view for gunners which would cause the padlock view to fail if the plane flew outside the possible views permitted by that buff type.

Horrible idea and not worth 'coading'. Imho, as long as they can't gun effectively from the F3 perspective, I'm happy.

[Rich46yo]

The Ju 88 was often flown "Nintendo style" for real. Unlike Allied bombers, planes like Ju 88, Do 217 etc had often to rely on heavy maneuvering to evade enemy attacks after steath & speed failed, not formation flying and heavy firepower. Especially on the Western front after BoB, when single German bombers did fly attacks  on Great Britain under adverse weather conditions.
If you read combat reports, you will notice German medium bombers doing split-s & similar maneuvers to evade attacking Spitfires or Mosquitoes. As already noticed the 88 was originally designed to be a divebomber, and thus very durable & capable of doing such moves.
That we may see rather "extreme" maneuvering much more often in here is not necessarily a result of faulty modeling that has to be fixed, but of a totally different combat environment.

I doubt actual JU-88 pilots continuously typed different speeds into their Alt/X controls so's they could flop around, and their drones, in manuevers that would leave an actual crew drowning in their own vomit. Next time I see it I'll film it and if the real JU's could actually do it then I'll buy German for the rest of my life.

I saw a guy do it with Lancs once. No doubt he was thinking himself very skilled.

These are not legitimate combat manuevers Im talking about. Split S's I could live with.

[mechanic]

I'm not even going to speak about using a buff in a way it was not intended. (IE Dogfighting)

*Spits the hook out and swims away.*

Actualy i've read reports of Allied bomber pilot who were seperated from the stream and subsequently shot down by squadrons of cannon armed ju88s so in this case it's legit. As for f3 mode i just wish it was disabled in the DA. Thats the one place where it would be nice to know your enemy is not using f3 mode to make SA and gunnery that much easier.

[thrila]

Maybe we should enable the mossie to have f3 mode- it does have a extra crew member after all.

[mensa180]

"I'm not even going to speak about using a buff in a way it was not intended. (IE Dogfighting)

*Spits the hook out and swims away.*"

Isn't there a squadron around here that flies twin engined buffs around like they were fighters?  If I remember right they were a bunch of loonies. 

[Vinkman]

I didn't know you could use F3 while flying. Is that only for bombers? I think I tried it a P-39 while flying (because I wanted to look at the plane) and it would not allow that view.
Why is it enabled for Bombers in flight?

[shreck]

I doubt actual JU-88 pilots continuously typed different speeds into their Alt/X controls so's they could flop around, and their drones, in manuevers that would leave an actual crew drowning in their own vomit. Next time I see it I'll film it and if the real JU's could actually do it then I'll buy German for the rest of my life.

I saw a guy do it with Lancs once. No doubt he was thinking himself very skilled.

These are not legitimate combat manuevers Im talking about. Split S's I could live with.

The same could easily be said about IL2 drivers and their planes 




If anyone here thinks F3 view is not a "MAJOR and UNREALISTIC" enhancement to the performance possibilties of these aircraft, than they are lying for fear of losing F3 not wanting their advantage taken away or they're NUTS   

It's easy to see who is who in these posts! 

Again, make it so you cannot shoot in F3 view! Simple and effective 

[shreck]

Do the additional crewmbers leave the plane once you're starting to maneuver in a Ju 88?

Historically they gave constant updates on approaching fighters, so that the Ju 88 could break away at the right moment.

I'm pretty confident that during such manouvres the crew is far more concerned with "holding on to ANYTHING" so they weren't flopping around the fuselage than peeking out there gun holes and accurately directing the pilot as to specific threats and specific locations! I would think the crew and the communication would be pretty much useless under these manouvring instances! 

[Vudak]

Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.

This would be an ideal compromise.  Have F3 (or whatever) allow you to visually jump to your gunners position while still flying the plane from the pilot's position.  It seems realistic, fair, and not completely different than what we have today.

[shreck]

Give them the view from any gun and that is it, end of list.

Actually this might be the best idea yet!

[Anaxogoras]

We've discussed this idea before.  Let the normal view keys give you the gunners' view, but with the ability to still control the aircraft.