Author Topic: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen  (Read 9924 times)

Offline Motherland

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Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« on: August 09, 2009, 07:48:06 PM »
I have a very detailed description of this 109, with many color photographs, a frankenstein made possible by the recycling program used by the Germans late in the war...





The problem is, though I have it's Werk Nummer (both the one on the tail, recycled from a Bf 109F, and on the propeller... I don't know which would be more useful)

Doesn't look that bad in this picture... however this aircraft is made of a hodgepodge of parts with several different paint schemes (the wings are completely a-similar, elevators don't match horizontal stabs, sloppily repaired rudder doesn't match vertical stab... etc) with parts from many different types of aircraft... although it's listed as a G-6, it would probably be more similar to the G-14 as we have in game.

Does anyone have more info on this a/c (if it was ever used in combat?) Werk Nummer on the tail is 163824 and the Werk Nummer on the propeller is 441039.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 07:52:00 PM by Motherland »

Offline Fencer51

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 07:56:24 PM »
If I had to guess, without any knowledge of where the photo came from, I would say that it was a plane put togather post war from parts.  Possibly in Great Britain or the United States.

The photo just looks "off" as well.  Could it be colorized?
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 08:06:33 PM »
If I had to guess, without any knowledge of where the photo came from, I would say that it was a plane put togather post war from parts.  Possibly in Great Britain or the United States.

No, this was an aircraft rebuilt at Ludwig Hansen & Co Flugzeug-Repatur-Werk in Muenster. It was (re)completed on December 31 1944.

The photo just looks "off" as well.  Could it be colorized?
I mucked with the colors a bit to try to bring them out for the sake of posting it on the boards. The original photo doesn't look very different, it just had tons of red which I cut down on. There's also several of post-war photos of the various parts of the aircraft from post war in storage.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 09:25:50 AM »
It is some what reminiscent of this captured post war plane.






Offline Fencer51

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 10:38:35 AM »
It is some what reminiscent of this captured post war plane.

Yeah that's what I thought it was.
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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 01:27:54 PM »
They're two different 109 variants.

Nice find bubi, would love to see that skinned  :lol
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Offline lyric1

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 05:14:04 PM »

Offline Motherland

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 05:26:40 PM »
This bird is kept at the Australian War Memorial BTW, if that would help with finding out its combat record...
Found another picture of it on display.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 05:29:53 PM by Motherland »

Offline Motherland

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 05:37:53 PM »
Apparently the aircraft was captured at Eggebek Airfield in 1945 by the British. Anyone know what units were stationed there?

Offline fudgums

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 06:09:52 PM »
this maybe it.

Bf 109 G-6 (Australia)

The Bf 109 s/n 163824 was produced at Regensburg in 1944, within the last batch of the G-6 series. It was tested at Puchhof airfield and was damaged in the same year. Until today it is not known, what unit used this Messerschmitt. During December 1944, the plane was refurbished at "Ludwig Hansen & Co." repairing facilities, prooved by the inscription "M.C.Y. 31.12.1944".
The plane got a new starboard wing, a new stern section and a changed engine cowl.
After the war the Britains captured the 163824 at Eggebek airfield. The plane was transferred to England and in 1946 it was crated and shipped to Australia, where it was a present - together with a Me 163 - for the Australian Government.
Until 1954, the two warbirds were stored, then they were transferred to the Australian War Memorial. There were no documents with the two planes, so it was unable to clear their identities. Due to the lack of storage room, the Bf 109 was sold to a flight instructor for 100 Australian Pounds. Then Sid Marshall purchased the plane and integrated it to its collection. After Marshall died in 1975, a British aviation enthusiast bought the plane, paying 100000 $, and planned to ship it to Britain. The new Australian export laws cancelled the plans and so the plane again was stored at Sydney.
The court case awarded the Messerschmitt again to the Australian War Memorial in 1987 on the grounds that the Memorial "ensure the restoration and preservation of the aircraft...and that the aircraft will be maintained for the general public."
The restoration works begun in 2002 and will hopefully be completed in December 2003.
A lot of work has been undertaken to clean and conserve the genuine colour from 1944. A part of the canopy was changed and the tail wheel had to be changed. The radioactive instruments were removed and stored. Except of the missing armament the plane is complete in all respects.
The "Gustav" will find its place in a depiction of the European bombing offensive, accompanied by an Avro Lancaster, a Me 262 and a 8,8 cm Flak 36.
The 163824 is the only Bf 109, wearing its original camouflage.
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 06:13:58 PM »
With the extensive recycling of airframes which took place during the war many bastards must have appeared, many times by adding later upgrades to earlier airframes. One such facility was Frontrepartutbetrieb GL Erla VII rebuilding damaged aircraft and adding updates. A well known rebuild is the "Bf109G-6" W.Nr. 163824, exhibited in original condition in Australia at their War Memorial, can be used as an example.  It started it's life as an Bf109G-6 converted to a G-6/AS and ended up as a "Bastard' plain G-6.

K.A.Merrick in the book "Luftwaffe Camouflage And Markings 1939-1945 Vol 1" also gives more info on the repairs on the a/c (p.174-181)

In Münster when the damaged a/c was repaired again and completed in December 1944:


The DB 605 engine installed was a new unit.

The tall tail unit from its G-6/AS days was removed and exchanged to a recycled Bf109 F small fin and rudder assembly.

Horizontal tail plane and BOTH wings taken from used G-6 parts. Wings of later manufacture than the a/c and of reinforced type according to coding "VE".

Some G-6/AS parts retained though. The broad VDM 9-21259A propeller was retained, even if the unit came from another a/c believed to be WNr 441039 as marked on one prop blade. The larger Fo 987 radiator and the Erla canopy was also still in place.

Standard engine cowling's to have been fitted and a recycled ammunition bay bulged cover fairing fitted after removing the /AS rear fairing.

Built at Regensburg in mid 1943 or early 44 , its combat history is unknown, but it sustained thirty percent damage in a ground collision with another 109 on 12.8.44 at Flugplatz Rheine, Germany. At that time it was assigned to Flzg.Überführ.G. 1 ( a headquarters unit ). The aircraft underwent a major rebuild at Ludwig Hansen & Co Aircraft Repair Depot in December 1944, noted by the small hand painted legend "MCY 31.12.44" in white under the cockpit. It was discovered without tactical markings at Eggebeck airfield , Germany in May 1945 and selected as a museum exhibit, being transported to the U.K. Following shipment to Australia it was acquired by the AWM.

In 1949 the 109 was transferred to RAAF Laverton, and then to Tocumwal. Handed over to the AWM for storage at Duntroon in 1955 it spent eight years there. The museum decided to dispose of the machine to release enough storage space for the aircraft that were considered by the AWM to be of highest historical value ( Lancaster, Spitfire, Wirraway ).

Initially sold to a private collector, B.Wetless of Bankstown, who in turn sold the aircraft to Marshall Airways. After the death of Marshall, the 109 was purchased by Doug Arnold of the U.K. In 1979, during an attempt to ship it to the U.K. Australian custom officials impounded the aircraft because of irregularities in the export documents , the aircraft was described as ‘aircraft parts’, and Customs decided this was an inadequate description for a complete and rare aircraft! In 1988 the customs authorities transferred the 109 back to the AWM. Since that time it has been stored at the Treleor Center , the museum having plans to place it on public display for the first time in mid 2003

In spite of the numerous ownership changes the 109 is in a very good shape with little corrosion. At present it lacks armament, radios, and some minor cockpit components but it is hoped these can be sourced soon, the missing tailwheel recently being acquired from Belgium. It is the only aircraft in the world to still carry the original German camouflage, never having been repainted post war.




You could have just asked, Bubi.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 06:16:33 PM by Stampf »
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 06:14:08 PM »
this maybe it.

Bf 109 G-6 (Australia)

The Bf 109 s/n 163824 was produced at Regensburg in 1944, within the last batch of the G-6 series. It was tested at Puchhof airfield and was damaged in the same year. Until today it is not known, what unit used this Messerschmitt. During December 1944, the plane was refurbished at "Ludwig Hansen & Co." repairing facilities, prooved by the inscription "M.C.Y. 31.12.1944".
The plane got a new starboard wing, a new stern section and a changed engine cowl.
After the war the Britains captured the 163824 at Eggebek airfield. The plane was transferred to England and in 1946 it was crated and shipped to Australia, where it was a present - together with a Me 163 - for the Australian Government.
Until 1954, the two warbirds were stored, then they were transferred to the Australian War Memorial. There were no documents with the two planes, so it was unable to clear their identities. Due to the lack of storage room, the Bf 109 was sold to a flight instructor for 100 Australian Pounds. Then Sid Marshall purchased the plane and integrated it to its collection. After Marshall died in 1975, a British aviation enthusiast bought the plane, paying 100000 $, and planned to ship it to Britain. The new Australian export laws cancelled the plans and so the plane again was stored at Sydney.
The court case awarded the Messerschmitt again to the Australian War Memorial in 1987 on the grounds that the Memorial "ensure the restoration and preservation of the aircraft...and that the aircraft will be maintained for the general public."
The restoration works begun in 2002 and will hopefully be completed in December 2003.
A lot of work has been undertaken to clean and conserve the genuine colour from 1944. A part of the canopy was changed and the tail wheel had to be changed. The radioactive instruments were removed and stored. Except of the missing armament the plane is complete in all respects.
The "Gustav" will find its place in a depiction of the European bombing offensive, accompanied by an Avro Lancaster, a Me 262 and a 8,8 cm Flak 36.
The 163824 is the only Bf 109, wearing its original camouflage.
Yup, that's what pointed me to its location of capture at Eggebek.
Found this, along with many more pics of the a/c here...
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1559&st=0&p=6678&#entry6678

"As I posted a summary and gave some publication references about this Bf109 at the Pacific Fighters forum last year, I thought some here might be interested in it as well why I paste it here, slightly shortened. The posting is merged from more than one post of mine from the thread, why some repetition might occur ;)

There is a section on this a/c including color pictures taken when the a/c was in storage, in Eagle Files#3 Augsburg's Last Eagles by Brett Green. It is to have been built at Regensburg plant autumn 1943. Feb/Mar rebuilt to G-6/AS. Served with JG1 and JG11 and damaged in May 1944. It was damaged again after repair in a ferry flight before end of 1944. Rebuilt again to std G-6 in Münster in Dec '44 and given U4 spec; MK108 through spinner and R3; provision for drop tank.G-6/U4/R3 consequently. Several parts seem to have been collected from other a/c in the rebuild. There is also a 10 page description of the paintwork in this interesting book. Also a color profile is included. There is a LH side outdoor color photo of the fuselage in "The Modeler's Luftwaffe Painting Guide" by Smith/Pentland/Lutz, Kookaburra, 1979.

The German magazine Jet & Prop 1/04 had an article on the a/c, which among other facts contain the same info on the Russian scribbling found.(when conservators removed the tail of this aircraft to check for corrosion, they found hastily scrawled graffiti, possibly left by Russian slave workers) It is further confirming that several repairs have been done over time. Reference is given that the a/c at one time belonged to Flzg. Überführ.G.1 (Flugzeugüberfürungsgeschwader 1), which I interpret as a ferry a/c unit, supplying front units with replacement a/c.

Anyone who knows more about this unit?

It is to have suffered a ground collision on 12 August 1944 with Bf109 G-6 WNr 20488 with 30% damage. The aircraft was repaired in Münster when possibly the Starboard wing and also the aft fuselage were replaced. Traces of battle damage have been found in the form of repairs of bullet damage to the wall behind the cockpit and to the fuselage top side around the antenna. Some fuselage panel parts have also been replaced. The article does not reveal anything around the capture of the a/c, more than giving reference to that the a/c was taken from Eggebek in Northern Germany (Schleswig-Holstein) to England in September 1945. Would be interesting to know if the a/c was captured at Eggebek or if it was brought there from another airfield in the region to be sent to the UK. In the last few days of WW2 it is recorded that several units withdrew to airfields in the north of Germany, Denmark and even Norway, short before the capitulation. Could this a/c have been allocated to a training unit, but given no code yet? A picture in Phil Butler's excellent book "War Prizes" p.151 show another Bf 109G-14 W.Nr 464863, coded '863', a typical training unit coding with three digit numbers - also at Eggebek. This a/c was also sent to the UK for museum usage. Being of a G-6 specification, the a/c is less likely to have been a front line unit fighter in 1945. Higher performing 109 G-10, K-4 and Fw190D-9s were having enough difficulties surviving the "target rich environment" over Germany in '45. Training unit coded 109s were found also in neighboring Denmark in May 1945 and documented in photographs. My guess is that the a/c after repairs has been in an a/c depot and then been allocated to an unknown training unit, where it has been a "spare" but never allocated a code number. As even K-4 have been found at training units in May 1945, it is not surprising if this old G-6 did not get first priority to get access to the scarce petrol supplies and made active again in 1945. The above is of course pure speculation from my side based on the actual a/c type being a G-6, found without markings in May 1945 in Northern Germany, at an airfield with another training unit Bf 109, knowing the general war situation at the time etc.....

It seems that 2./JG102 was detached to Eggebek 11.9.44 to 16.4.45. Also 5./JG102 was based at Eggebek from Oct 1944 to March 1945. JG102 was a fighter pilot training unit, why it is not unlikely that this a/c, as well as WNr 464863 marked '863' at Eggebek, belonged to JG102.

Regarding the likelihood of seeing this 109 skinned is beyond my horizon to foresee, but it would sure be a challenge as the a/c has a very varied mix of colors and patterns. For those who do try, I have noticed that several good color photos are at hand in different publications, giving both overview and details. The photos on the web sites listed earlier give many details. For overviews, the still in print book: "Luftwaffe Camouflage And Markings 1939-1945 Vol 1" by K.A.Merrick has color upper views of both wings, both tail planes and tail unit, most of port fuselage and starboard side.

A more difficult to find reference today is: "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935 - 45, Vol 3", by J.R.Smith & J.D.Gallaspy, Kookaburra. On p. 132 there is good overview of the scheme seen slightly from above why the upper fuselage and wings are seen. It is here clearly evident that port and starboard wings are painted differently. This color shot is taken outdoors.

K.A.Merrick in the book above also gives more info on the repairs on the a/c: In Münster when the damaged a/c was repaired again and completed in December 1944:

1.The DB 605 engine installed was a new unit.
2. The tall tail unit from its G-6/AS days was removed and exchanged to a recycled Bf109 F small fin and rudder assembly.
3. Horizontal tail plane and BOTH wings taken from used G-6 parts. Wings of later manufacture than the a/c and of reinforced type according to coding "VE".
4. Some G-6/AS parts retained though. The broad VDM 9-21259A propeller was retained, even if the unit came from another a/c believed to be WNr 441039 as marked on one prop blade. The larger Fo 987 radiator and the Erla canopy was also still in place.
5. Standard engine cowlings to have been fitted and a recycled ammunition bay bulged cover fairing fitted after removing the /AS rear fairing.

Merrick also adds on to the early history of the a/c by stating that the a/c when leaving the Regensburg factory was painted in std 74/75/76 scheme and got Stammkennzeichen NF+FY. He also indicates that the a/c perhaps was destined for a training unit after rebuild. Yes, why should otherwise a G-6/AS be downgraded to a plain G-6? The websites referred to above:"



The plane had evidently received combat damage after being restored, although it probably belonged to a training unit. I wonder if I could skin it...



*snip post length exceeded*

Actually the first place I read about this was Luftwaffe Markings and Camouflage, the only thing I was looking for was its service record. TY though.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 06:15:57 PM by Motherland »

Offline lyric1

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 06:15:13 PM »
Oh wow I have seen that plane in person at the memorial & did not even realise it.

Offline Stampf

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2009, 06:23:36 PM »
Actually the first place I read about this was Luftwaffe Markings and Camouflage, the only thing I was looking for was its service record. TY though.

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Offline Messiah

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Re: Most ridiculous aircraft I've ever seen
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 10:35:01 PM »
I would so use that skin, haha.
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