Author Topic: Engines runing full blast  (Read 8031 times)

Offline Saxman

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2009, 12:55:28 PM »
Stilgr,

The issue about overheating, as has been pointed out many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many MANY times in the endless permutations of this debate is that it was NOT so much a matter of your engine exploding in your face or seizing up because it overheated in combat. The issue is that it meant that engine would most likely require more maintenance for the next flight, have a shorter service life, and need to be replaced that much sooner.

Because of this, instituting any sort of "X time until your engine stops because you ran it maxed out" overheat limitation is EVERY BIT AS ARTIFICIAL as no overheats whatsoever.

Unless HTC decides to institute limited availability of every plane, meaning that some dweeb redlining his engine results in that specific aircraft can't be flown again until its engine is "checked out" or replaced, reducing the number of that particular plane available (say you have 50 Spit XVIs available on your country. Twenty guys exceed the operating restrictions, so now you'll only have 30 Spixteens available for the next given amount of time while the engines are raked over with a fine-tooth comb or while you wait on replacements from the supply depot. If 31 guys want to fly a Spixteen, well, sorry #31 you're out of luck until then) overheating HAS NO PLACE IN THE GAME.
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Offline 1Boner

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2009, 12:58:04 PM »

Just a few thoughts for those of you who are resistant to more realism in your sim.

A FEW thoughts??

Here's one for ya.

Although your lengthy diatribe was condesending thus humorus,you forgot one major thing.

This is NOT a sim,not even close, its a game. :aok
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Offline ToeTag

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2009, 01:02:32 PM »
OK. You code it, model the extra controlls in every model....boats and gv's too.  I think for gv's a button for the clutch should have to be hit :D while hitting the button for gears.  Submitt it to HTC and see if it gets implemented so that 90% of the players can get ticked about it and quit so that 10% can have a few more buttons and knobs.  I also think that more realistic engine management should require manual trim controls.  I also think that the GPS clipboard should be removed and you actually have to sit in the troop facilities and plan your mission with a real E6B and plotter (that would get rid of the dumb it down squeakers).  It would also add to the realism of getting completely lost and crash landing after flying around for 30 minutes because you can't read your compass.

And end sarcasm........

The game is dumbed down so that a broader spectrum of experience can come in and enjoy the GAME.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 01:04:35 PM by ToeTag »
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Offline Strip

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2009, 01:04:53 PM »
Guess the word OPTIONAL gets lost amongst the feet stamping and unit measuring......

Offline ToeTag

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 01:10:15 PM »
Guess the word OPTIONAL gets lost amongst the feet stamping and unit measuring......

I think everyone has to have the same options or one may discover that one has certain advantages over others.   :devil
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 01:31:01 PM »
Guess the word OPTIONAL gets lost amongst the feet stamping and unit measuring......

And when those that select and use the "optional extras" start getting their arse handed to them by those that don't ... they will stop using the "optional extras" making all that work null and void or they will come back here screaming that everyone must use them else it just isn't fair ... and we know that ain't gonna happen.

So what would be the ROI for HT in all of this ? ... zero ... zip ... nada.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 03:00:22 PM »
A detailed, realistic flight sim simply WILL have detailed engine management. It's not that hard to implement, really.

You show me a current flight sim that has a realistic cooling model...Most of our computers wouldn't have the power to crunch the CFD required to model the airflow and render the game as well.  But, since we don't use CFD for the aerodynamics modelling in game, I'll concede you a vector/math based system.  How do we know what the cooling efficiencies of any engine that is represented in game?  Do we have test data that can differentiate the cooling rates of cylinders on a Japanese Zero engine versus the cooling rates of the glycol in a P-51D?  Anything at all to help HTC quantify what a full-power climb with cowl flaps open would do to B-17 engines on WEP?  IL2 may introduce these aspects in game, but its implementation is every bit as "gamey" as the lack of it is in AH2.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more detail in this game, but its not a "detailed, realistic flight sim...".  On HTC's homepage, it states "welcome to the internet's premier WWII combat experience".  HTC would probably tell you they're not trying to recreate MSFS with bullets.
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Offline Stiglr

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 03:21:51 PM »
OK, one at a time...

To those "you code it" or show me realistic engine management challenges... I deal with it all the time in Targetware.
Yes, it is simplified such that one system can handle many, many types of planes and engines from different countries. But, even in this simplified state, it's quite robust, adds the correct amount of "pilot workload" and well simulates the benefits and consequences of managing or mismanaging one's engine. As for IL-2, well they OVER-simplified it to the point where it pretty much doesn't even work. But, it can be, and has been, done.

Also, it's not that hard to come up with guidelines and parameters that can reasonably simulate the effects of overheating, over-revving (there's another thing...nobody's ever "thrown a prop" in Aces High, either, have they? ;) ) and the effects of poor application of fuel mixture. You can start with maintenance manuals for aircraft of the period, just the same way you can find test data and design documents for the planes to model them in the first place. As for within the sim, the one I'm referring to has a universal "cooling factor" which can be ratcheted up or down for any aircraft to factor in things like if a certain plane had a record of engine heat problems, if the cooling systems were or were not effective in the field, etc. So, you can apply it equally across the board (not very realistic) or you can tinker with it to produce a more interesting (and probably more accurate) flight model.

To those who say your engine won't act up if totally neglected (which is, to my view, the definition of leaving the throttle at 100% the entire throttle): you're simply wrong. Many pilots didn't come home because they mishandled their engines. And it doesn't necessarily have to "blow up in your face" to malfunction. Steadily lessening output is really all that's needed to drive the point home. You lose 20% of your engine power during a fight and see if you don't notice the difference. And that oil splatter and smoke coming from the cowling? Oh, never mind that.

More on operations expectations: years ago I wondered about these issues, and had a chance to sit down with the real (Franz) Stiegler, a Luftwaffe pilot for JG27 and JV44, and also a trainer. Qualifies as an expert, IMO. I asked him about this, and, to paraphrase, he said, "Full out throttle was saved for periods no more than 10 minutes in a one-hour flight (not meaning WEP or ADI, which has its own limits). We would use full power during take-off, then throttle back to about 80% for a climb [unless it was an emergency "buster" climb to intercept]. Once at altitude you'd throttle back to no more than 75% for cruise." He also said the reason for this was to save the engine for combat when you really needed to go balls out.

One fellow really hit it on the head though: "this isn't a sim, it's a game". I suppose if that's your attitude... well, then nothing really matters other than just "blowing sh*t up," right?  :rolleyes: This is what I mean by excuses. You can always find a way that even a good simulation isn't 100% correct, and you can always say things like, 'Well, we don't actually die in the sim, so that's unrealistic too..." or some other smokescreen to excuse things that could be fixed or addressed... but would simply inconvenience a gamer type who doesn't really want any kind of challenge or anything that makes him have to work at to get better, or that he can (heaven forbid) learn something from.

As for "optional" this shouldn't BE optional. It should be a part of the simulation, simply because it was a fact of life in the real event. People would learn to do it, because they'd get tired of frying engines and balky performance. Same principle as if you don't put gas in your car because you "can't be bothered to". When it runs out of gas, and sputters to a stop, you WILL take the gas can and walk all the way to the nearest station, if you want to drive your car again.

Fact of the matter is, many people will fight the very idea of (more) complex engine management only because they're lazy... and because their mindset is on the gamer side of the game <----> simulation spectrum.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 03:28:30 PM by Stiglr »

Offline Stiglr

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 03:37:43 PM »
OK. You code it, model the extra controlls in every model....boats and gv's too.  I think for gv's a button for the clutch should have to be hit :D while hitting the button for gears.  Submitt it to HTC and see if it gets implemented so that 90% of the players can get ticked about it and quit so that 10% can have a few more buttons and knobs.  I also think that more realistic engine management should require manual trim controls.  I also think that the GPS clipboard should be removed and you actually have to sit in the troop facilities and plan your mission with a real E6B and plotter (that would get rid of the dumb it down squeakers).  It would also add to the realism of getting completely lost and crash landing after flying around for 30 minutes because you can't read your compass.

And end sarcasm........

The game is dumbed down so that a broader spectrum of experience can come in and enjoy the GAME.

Hoo boy, where do I start?

There's no manual TRIM in Aces High? What????  :O  No, really?

I've seen armor games where you have to "use the clutch" and gear up or down. WWIIOL and Steel Fury Kharkov '42 come to mind. And, in those sims, at least you have enough ground clutter and ground contour resolution to even get past ARCADE "point 'n plink" mode for fighting. GVs here, and in WB, too, are a total waste of time...

"Submit to HTC..." there's another sore point... they have no will do to the job properly. Years ago I mentioned to Addink that the planes that have metric gauges in them should be represented. He told me, (and I paraphrase for humor and effect): "This here's a 'murrican game, with a 'murrican audience... and they don't LIKE metric anything. So, we won't bother with it." Phew.... with a viewpoint like that, perhaps there's NO CHANCE for anything approaching realism in this game...

Offline ToeTag

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2009, 03:49:42 PM »


"Submit to HTC..." there's another sore point... they have no will do to the job properly. Years ago I mentioned to Addink that the planes that have metric gauges in them should be represented. He told me, (and I paraphrase for humor and effect): "This here's a 'murrican game, with a 'murrican audience... and they don't LIKE metric anything. So, we won't bother with it." Phew.... with a viewpoint like that, perhaps there's NO CHANCE for anything approaching realism in this game...

The point is that its just not that realistic. :aok
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2009, 03:51:45 PM »
they have no will do to the job properly...

Then why are you here?  Do you want to have a discussion about how to improve the game, or do you want to merely condescend and talk about how poor this game is?  While you're at it, how about you insult the player's too?

We're having a discussion here.  You don't agree, that's fine.  But don't start slinging mud--no one will respond to it constructively.
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Offline LLogann

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2009, 04:01:43 PM »
Was this before or after you registered for the boards all those years ago?


 Years ago I mentioned to Addink that the planes that have metric gauges in them should be represented.
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2009, 04:07:37 PM »
OK, one at a time...

To those "you code it" or show me realistic engine management challenges... I deal with it all the time in Targetware.
Yes, it is simplified such that one system can handle many, many types of planes and engines from different countries. But, even in this simplified state, it's quite robust, adds the correct amount of "pilot workload" and well simulates the benefits and consequences of managing or mismanaging one's engine. As for IL-2, well they OVER-simplified it to the point where it pretty much doesn't even work. But, it can be, and has been, done.

Also, it's not that hard to come up with guidelines and parameters that can reasonably simulate the effects of overheating, over-revving (there's another thing...nobody's ever "thrown a prop" in Aces High, either, have they? ;) ) and the effects of poor application of fuel mixture. You can start with maintenance manuals for aircraft of the period, just the same way you can find test data and design documents for the planes to model them in the first place. As for within the sim, the one I'm referring to has a universal "cooling factor" which can be ratcheted up or down for any aircraft to factor in things like if a certain plane had a record of engine heat problems, if the cooling systems were or were not effective in the field, etc. So, you can apply it equally across the board (not very realistic) or you can tinker with it to produce a more interesting (and probably more accurate) flight model.

To those who say your engine won't act up if totally neglected (which is, to my view, the definition of leaving the throttle at 100% the entire throttle): you're simply wrong. Many pilots didn't come home because they mishandled their engines. And it doesn't necessarily have to "blow up in your face" to malfunction. Steadily lessening output is really all that's needed to drive the point home. You lose 20% of your engine power during a fight and see if you don't notice the difference. And that oil splatter and smoke coming from the cowling? Oh, never mind that.

More on operations expectations: years ago I wondered about these issues, and had a chance to sit down with the real (Franz) Stiegler, a Luftwaffe pilot for JG27 and JV44, and also a trainer. Qualifies as an expert, IMO. I asked him about this, and, to paraphrase, he said, "Full out throttle was saved for periods no more than 10 minutes in a one-hour flight (not meaning WEP or ADI, which has its own limits). We would use full power during take-off, then throttle back to about 80% for a climb [unless it was an emergency "buster" climb to intercept]. Once at altitude you'd throttle back to no more than 75% for cruise." He also said the reason for this was to save the engine for combat when you really needed to go balls out.

One fellow really hit it on the head though: "this isn't a sim, it's a game". I suppose if that's your attitude... well, then nothing really matters other than just "blowing sh*t up," right?  :rolleyes: This is what I mean by excuses. You can always find a way that even a good simulation isn't 100% correct, and you can always say things like, 'Well, we don't actually die in the sim, so that's unrealistic too..." or some other smokescreen to excuse things that could be fixed or addressed... but would simply inconvenience a gamer type who doesn't really want any kind of challenge or anything that makes him have to work at to get better, or that he can (heaven forbid) learn something from.

As for "optional" this shouldn't BE optional. It should be a part of the simulation, simply because it was a fact of life in the real event. People would learn to do it, because they'd get tired of frying engines and balky performance. Same principle as if you don't put gas in your car because you "can't be bothered to". When it runs out of gas, and sputters to a stop, you WILL take the gas can and walk all the way to the nearest station, if you want to drive your car again.

Fact of the matter is, many people will fight the very idea of (more) complex engine management only because they're lazy... and because their mindset is on the gamer side of the game <----> simulation spectrum.

WOW ... then let's go all the way for the total experience ... as soon as you get shot down ... the game will erase itself and prevent you from installing it again ... you don't really have to die, that would be too harsh.

Targetware may have complex engine management but it is a very poor example of how to make money in this genre.

Have fun in the vacuum of the Targetware servers.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2009, 04:14:53 PM »
And still no useful information has been delivered.

Give some specific numbers for specific planes that HTC can use in the modeling. Don't think a P-51D should be able to run at 60'' and 3,000 RPM indefinitely? Okay, how long should it take to get too hot at that setting? What setting should be allowable for continuous operation? What should happen? And if I roll a P-51D with a well maintained engine under the hood, can you claim that some sort of failure after 30-60 minutes of running at 60'' manifold and 3,000 rpm is going to happen, or is even likely?
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Offline minke

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2009, 04:19:29 PM »
I dont want a combat sim like this to end up with hundreds of keyboard commands thanks. The current system is fine and fair to all.

If you want realism, we can start with the groups of burning A6M's buzzing round. Its like watching a harry potter movie for goodness sake

 :noid