109G-10 and K-4

[RAM]

Well It is my belief that Me109G-10 and K-4 had different engines,airframes, speed, acceleration, climbrate...and weapons too (didn't it have 2 cowl mounted MG151/15 15mm cannons?)

then why is everybody saying that 109G-10 is in fact the K-4?. I think they are quite different planes. am I wrong?

(Read as...I WANT 109K-4!!!! I WANT I WANT!!...but after my 190A-5!!!   )

no, seriously...wich were the historical differences between Me109G-10 and Me109K-4?

thks in advance
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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Kieren]

I think (based on Green's work) that I read that the K-4 was a standardization of all the field fixes. So there might be very little difference between a G10 and K4.

[wells]

The K4 also had retractable tailwheel and inner landing gear doors to help reduce drag a little bit.  Otherwise, they were pretty much the same airframe with the same engine.  The K4 being a tad faster, that's all.

[funked]

I recall that some of the G-10's had the same engines as the K-4 and where otherwise identical.  There were several different specifications of G-10.

Also check out the official HTC speed numbers on the G-10.  Sure looks like a K-4 to me!  

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Alot of this is repeating the others posts but...

The G10 and the K4 were both powered by the same engine, the DB605D.

The MG151/15mm's were not used in the K4, or any other 109 production variant.  This myth comes from a single source that was in error and it has propagated down thru many reference books.  Otherwise the G10 and the K4 had the same armament options.

Here is the quote from Meserschmitt Bf109 in action on the differences in airframes:

 

Externally, the K was similar to the G10.  The wider main wheels and the large rectangular upper wing bulges were made standard. The radio hatch in the left side of the fuselage was relocated forward and higher, the DF loop was moved back a panel, the tailwheel was made retractable with doors, and there were two external trim tabs on the rudder.  As far back as the Bf 109F, there were experiments with a wheel well cover and this was finally installed on the K. The wheel well cover was frequently removed by units in the field, however.

So as Wells said, the major difference was the tail wheel, and on certain aircraft the outter wheel well cover.

Top Speed, now in every source I can find that lists both the G10 and the K4, they are typically within a couple of miles per hour, of each other.  The Bf109 in Action book lists the top speed of the G10 as 452 mph at 19,685ft.  It lists the top speed of the K4 as 452mph at 19,685ft. Which coincidentally matchs the Speed vs Altitude graph of the G10 on the AH help page.

Face it guys, the G10 is effectively identical in performance to the K4.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[RAM]

aha...then Its ok  

ponly wanted to know which were the differences  
thks

[HABICHT]

hi vermillion,
you said, that g10 has top speed of more
than 450mph?
in my books i read following:

109 g10 DB605D top speed 685KM/h
109 K4  DB605 ASCM top speed around 720 KM/h
in 20k.
we have a g10 with db605D in ah, and i think
their top speed is about 425MP/h (in the game)
so the 109k4 with ASCM engine should reach
little about 450mp/h (like u posted).
but again, out g10 in AH can do 425, but not
450 MP/h in lvl flight.
i know, the K had some more engine versions
aviable, but the db605ASCM was the primary one.
if i'm wrong, let me know


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JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 03-17-2000).]

[HABICHT]

uhh, did a test flight OFFLINE (something
with speeds different than online?)

i reached around 440mph after a little dive
from 23k to 20k. fuel 50%.
i'm really surprised, we have a 109k4 in
g10 art :-). so close gear doors, retract
tail gear and we have 10 mph more. with
use of polish we can even get some more 2mph :-) or i want the 109k14. met some really high buffs (37k)
vermillion, did these mg151/15 even exist?
hey, we should have the mg213 :-).

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JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Hristo]

OK, no MG 151 cowl guns.

But what about hub firing MK 103. Can someone tell was it there or wasn't for K-4 ?

[Pongo]

The ACSM engine is the definitive db605 (non D) engine. From what I understand both the G10 and the K4 could show up with this engine early in there productions runs. The engine intended for the G10 and K4 was the 605D. With this engine they were mostly identical.
I would like a 103 option. I would like the G6 to have the acsm engine to diff. it from the G2.
But we are very well represented with 109s…


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Vermillion]

Habicht, the primary engine of both the G10 and the K4 was the DB605D.  The primary engine of the G14 (which came before the G10 in production) was the DB605AS (which I am assuming is the same as the ASCM).  

Now there may have been some K's equipped with the ASCM, but I have about 4 different sources which quote the D as the standard. Of course it could be an error   I am just repeating what I can find in my books.

Now I don't fly the G10 much in the game, so I won't comment, but here is the chart Pyro has posted in the help section saying how the G10 should perform. If it doesn't perform as well as the chart says it should,  bug it and get it fixed.  

   

Now on the MG151/15mm it is my understanding that the gun existed, but that it just wasn't used in production variants of the 109. If I remember right it was used on the Do-335. Can anyone else think of other planes it was mounted on ?

Hristo, the only thing I can find about the Mk 103 30mm being used in 109's is this passage from The Complete Book of Fighters

 

Late production Bf109K4's replaced the Mk108 cannon with an Mk103 of similar caliber, this being standardized by the Bf109K6 which also carried a pair of Mk108s mounted internally in the wings.  Only a handful of Bf109K6's reached the Luftwaffe, but some 700 examples of the K4 had been completed when production of the Bf109 came to an end with the collapse of Germany in 1945.

Now how many K4's with the Mk103 were actually produced? I dont' know, and it indicates that the K6 production was very small. But hey, you can always ask Pyro for that gun loadout option  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Hristo]

MG 151/15 was used in 109F-2, as hub firing cannon, AFAIK.

As for hub MK 103, I read about it in Green’s Warplanes of the Third Reich. Still, he mentions cowl MG 151/15 too  

 

…Later production Bf 109K-4s introduced an engine mounted 30 mm MK 103 cannon in place of the standard Mk 108, but the 2.5-in. diameter outer sheath enclosing the barrell of this weapon rendered a barrell change under operational conditions a somewhat onerous task. The MK 103 was also adopted for the next K-series variant, the Bf 109K-6, which, intended primarily as an anti-bomber weapon, carried two additional MK 103 cannon in underwing gondolas, but reverted to 13 mm MG 131s in place of the 15 mm…

Obviously some wrong info on MG 151/15 there, but what about the MK 103s ?

If AH 109 ever gets the MK 103, it will be some long range killer, better than P-38. having an option not to take cowl MGs might also be nice - MK 103 is a heavy cannon, and MGs would be an overkill anyway  


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Yep Hristo, your right on the F2, I missed that model. Sorry.  But it should be realized that the MG151/15mm cannon actually replaced the MG FF 20mm cannon, not the MG's which is what many believe on the K4.

Actually, if I remember right it was Green's Book (which is otherwise highly regarded), which started the whole MG151/15mm legend     I kept getting Eric Brown in my mind and I knew it was incorrect.

And I agree, a Mk103 in a 109 would be very deadly indeed.

I just did a speed test offline to check out the game flight model versus the chart that Pyro has posted in the help section. The Bf109G10, armed with the 20mm cannon, at 22,000ft recorded the following speed.

     

Looks pretty close to me, right on actually.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-17-2000).]

[wells]

The 605D was pretty much the same engine as the ASCM (AS = larger supercharger, standard on D model, C = 96 octane fuel, M = methanol/water injection...again, standard on the D engine).  Compression ratio was higher in the 605D engine (from 7.3/7.5 to 8.3/8.5).  The left and right blocks had different compression ratios.

[funked]

The DB 605ASCM was pretty common on Me 109K-4 and the oft-published stats of 378 mph at S/L and 452 mph at 19,685 feet were for an ASCM-powered aircraft.

However the horsepower ratings of the DB 605ASCM were almost identical to the DB 605DC which was used on the Me 109G-10.  The DB 605D and DB 605DB were also used on the G-10.

As for the MK 103 installation, I find it highly unlikely because that gun is much longer than the MK 108 and even the MG 151/20.  The barrel would be sticking quite far out of the spinner.



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-17-2000).]