Author Topic: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...  (Read 8463 times)

Offline Wreked

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2009, 11:56:07 AM »
HOwhinners....can't we send em on a tour of the outlying provinces ta get rid of em??  :x
They invariably are the ones who set it up by pulling into the already commited attacker and then complain that it was a HO!!  lol

HO's are a fact of life in this game (has been since '86 as I recall) - so live with it or at least suk it up ....QUIETLY please!!

I really get tired of some people trying to tell everyone else how they have to play the game their way.
Maybe for some reason YOU think this game is only about combat/furballs - line-em-up co-alt and charge - did you ever  consider the possibility there just might be other views about what "combat" game play is?? - stop being so narrow minded and rude - if you don't like it maybe you should consider going to play some where else. No one is FORCING you to take the HO!!

Many of us would like to enjoy this game without being constantly castigated by people who just don't get it (their way).

sheesh........gimme a break!
(with all due respect of course)  :D

cheers eh!
HO is a HO is a HO!!
You can lead a donkey to a FACT - you just can't make them think!

cheers eh!!

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2009, 12:15:22 PM »
HOwhinners....can't we send em on a tour of the outlying provinces ta get rid of em??  :x
They invariably are the ones who set it up by pulling into the already commited attacker and then complain that it was a HO!!  lol

HO's are a fact of life in this game (has been since '86 as I recall) - so live with it or at least suk it up ....QUIETLY please!!

I really get tired of some people trying to tell everyone else how they have to play the game their way.
Maybe for some reason YOU think this game is only about combat/furballs - line-em-up co-alt and charge - did you ever  consider the possibility there just might be other views about what "combat" game play is?? - stop being so narrow minded and rude - if you don't like it maybe you should consider going to play some where else. No one is FORCING you to take the HO!!

Many of us would like to enjoy this game without being constantly castigated by people who just don't get it (their way).

sheesh........gimme a break!
(with all due respect of course)  :D

cheers eh!
Most people that HO, miss 99% of the time, they just keep going, avoiding the "fight" at all costs.  For many of us, it is a waste of time to try and play against them, as they want to get kills without fighting, and we wouldnt want a kill without fighting.... :aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Wreked

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2009, 01:00:05 PM »
Most people that HO, miss 99% of the time, they just keep going, avoiding the "fight" at all costs.  For many of us, it is a waste of time to try and play against them, as they want to get kills without fighting, and we wouldnt want a kill without fighting.... :aok

Now that's a reasonable thought  - you have your opinion and as long as you are NOT telling others they have to play your way then go right ahead. It's a BIG playgound - go play however you want - no one is gonna stop you. I have no problem with the likes of you.

Too many players take part in the HO and then complain about it - go figure. You obvisously will refuse the HO and fly on (having lost no game time) looking for "the good fight". It's your style of play and you have every right to play that way. Won't find any objection from here.

My annoyance is those who insist you have to play their way (whatever their flavour of the game is) and if you don't then you are ruining the game. LOL

"Tuff titty said da kitty as he passed da uder udder to da uder brudder, but da milks run dry!"

Maybe their mothers never give em nuff milk eh! :D
HO is a HO is a HO!!
You can lead a donkey to a FACT - you just can't make them think!

cheers eh!!

Offline 052088

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2009, 01:11:17 PM »
I knew better but chimed in anyway, but the eternal debate goes on.  I suggested a possible solution to quell both sides of the argument, but apparently to no avail.  Over and out on this subject!

DAGO :salute
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 01:12:55 PM by 052088 »

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2009, 04:46:31 PM »
Ok, perhaps your boored, or perhaps your favorite tactic is to HO with a cannon bird, and often times get criticized about it on 200.

Here are some suggestions.

1. Tune out 200, once you are over the age of 13, it fails to have a purpose.
2. Learn that a Head On Pass and what AH refers to as an "HO" are different things by definition
3. Learn that everyone interprets the definition differently
4. Understand the only people who complain about HO's are the ones in flames

If you go Nose on Nose, your a tard.  If you go 12 to 12 with 50 feet lateral clearance off the wing tips, and use rudder to pull a shot, you are doing a "REAL LIFE HEAD ON PASS".

If you are hoping that 50 feet of vertical clearance while you are still nose to nose is going to work out... your high. 

Tards and adrenaline will always force a shot.

The best have lobbed their effort at 1K and are already pulling off, the rest force it.

Always break RIGHT.  And the man with Altitude pulls up, the low guy stays level or Neg G Dives.

Rules to live by.
Ok now HatTrick you didn't have to go and make this personal. I just happened upon the story while perusing some data regarding another subject...didn't go looking for it. It just struck me as funny after seeing all the nonsense whining on 200 and in these forums about HO shots.

I don't tune out 200 but I do ignore most of the pitiful juvenile bs on it, sometimes it's funny. I really truly do not give a flip whose definition of head on is whatever. Whether it's real life drama and consequences or not is as relevant as a virtual fart. I've seen enough pilot AAR's to know whatever target of opportunity was presented was taken. Someone wants to whine about whatever happens to them I'll give them a tissue and the phone number to someone who might care.

Posting that little quip from a well known highly decorated WWII pilot got the exact responses I thought it would...like dropping a plastic turd into a crowded swimming pool.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline stodd

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2009, 04:48:49 PM »
Stodd/ CandyMan
I don't get why you even typed that, you know it's stupid.


Offline Grind

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2009, 05:24:24 PM »
Most people that HO, miss 99% of the time, they just keep going, avoiding the "fight" at all costs.  For many of us, it is a waste of time to try and play against them, as they want to get kills without fighting, and we wouldnt want a kill without fighting.... :aok

 :aok

key phrase being (IMHO).......

"it is a waste of time to try and play against them, as they want to get kills without fighting, and we wouldnt want a kill without fighting.... :aok"

Offline A8HatTrick

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2009, 07:13:06 PM »
Ok now HatTrick you didn't have to go and make this personal. I just happened upon the story while perusing some data regarding another subject...didn't go looking for it. It just struck me as funny after seeing all the nonsense whining on 200 and in these forums about HO shots.

I don't tune out 200 but I do ignore most of the pitiful juvenile bs on it, sometimes it's funny. I really truly do not give a flip whose definition of head on is whatever. Whether it's real life drama and consequences or not is as relevant as a virtual fart. I've seen enough pilot AAR's to know whatever target of opportunity was presented was taken. Someone wants to whine about whatever happens to them I'll give them a tissue and the phone number to someone who might care.

Posting that little quip from a well known highly decorated WWII pilot got the exact responses I thought it would...like dropping a plastic turd into a crowded swimming pool.

you started a thread about HO's, and summarized your arguement with the words :

:rofl  Just using the pointy stick to stir some natives...  :D

Excerpt from the last interview with Lufwaffe ace pilot Eric Hartmann:


Someone here said it was never done in real life...maybe Hartmann lied.

And when you get what ya wanted....................
A8HatTrick flying WWII sims since 1992
Aces and 8's A8's http://a8s.us aka A8hatrik
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Offline crazyivan

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2009, 07:28:31 PM »
fail
I was thinking he would've made a good Flying tiger . Also to live that long with that many victories he had to be good.

SO Go  :noid yourself! ohh derrr Fail!
POTW
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2009, 01:28:50 AM »
Now that's a reasonable thought  - you have your opinion and as long as you are NOT telling others they have to play your way then go right ahead. It's a BIG playgound - go play however you want - no one is gonna stop you. I have no problem with the likes of you.

Too many players take part in the HO and then complain about it - go figure. You obvisously will refuse the HO and fly on (having lost no game time) looking for "the good fight". It's your style of play and you have every right to play that way. Won't find any objection from here.

My annoyance is those who insist you have to play their way (whatever their flavour of the game is) and if you don't then you are ruining the game. LOL

"Tuff titty said da kitty as he passed da uder udder to da uder brudder, but da milks run dry!"

Maybe their mothers never give em nuff milk eh! :D

No one is insisting that you play their way.  I don't expect that folks won't HO.  When I run into someone who doesn't, I figure I'm in for a fight.  When someone comes in blazing head on, I figure it's going to be an easy kill if, and it's a big if, they attempt to stick around and fight after they miss the HO shot.

As I said, using history as your justification for something in a cartoon game, doesn't work for me.  That's not how I want to play.  But I can't dictate anyone elses style either, nor do I have to be impressed by something I think is silly in our cartoon game.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2009, 03:27:02 AM »

The way I look at it,

Real life was "Kill the enemy" sometimes at all costs.

In the game, there is no kill the enemy, because no one dies. In the game its suppose to be about the "combat" and a ho/joust isn't combat, it's just a waste of time and electronic pixels.

How is it not "combat" (in the game sense you're using)? You're shooting each other until one or both are "destroyed". Sounds like combat to me.

What you mean is it isn't courtly, honorable dueling. That's all nice I guess, but I would say less than 10% of the encounters I have in this game take the form of dueling. Take the exceptions WMLute listed and add a few others (vulched on takeoff, jumped by a picker from 5k+ up while you were fighting someone else, jumped by a faster plane when you're already past bingo fuel and just trying to get home, attacking or defending a base, or in the middle of a furball with 8 or 10 or more planes on each side), and you no longer have exceptions, you have the rule. Co-alt, co-e merges into 1-1 duels are the rare exception.

That doesn't make HOing a good move in every one of those situations, but it means most of the analysis here, which is based on those mythical 1-1 honorable duels, is BS. And the "bad habit" is expecting and acting like the other 90% of the game is one of those mythical courtly duels and whining when it doesn't turn out that way.

For example: if I'm 10' off the runway taking off and barely have enough speed to maneuver or zoom at all, and you come screaming in to vulch me and are dumb enough to do it from an angle where I can possibly get guns on you for half a second, damned straight I'm gonna HO yer schnoz and laugh hard if I succeed. That's all your fault for turning a situation where you have every possible advantage into one where you have the same chances I have, and taking the best shot I'm likely to get is the smart move for me. There's no magical ACM or "pile-it stuff" that I'm neglecting that's going to give me an advantage after that "merge," and there's no duel for me to engage in or avoid.

And that goes double, or maybe triple, if I'm defending a base so I know that if I get shot down I can just up again in 10 seconds while if you die you've got a 10-minute flight to return. In that situation a success rate of 1 in 10 is still a win in strategic terms no matter how disastrous it is to my score, because I've accomplished my objective and you have failed at yours. Is that logic like real life where you only get one life? Of course not, but then we've already agreed that this game isn't real life, haven't we?

The situation in a  big, messy furball is different but similar logic applies. If we're both maneuvering with other planes and all of a sudden I see you about to go nose to nose for a split second and give me a snap shot, I'm not going to pass it up because it isn't "honorable," especially if I think you're target fixated and won't see it coming. And chances are my maneuvering after the shot will have nothing to do with you whether I succeed in killing you or not anyway, I'll be more concerned with whoever I was engaged with before we stumbled into each other. This has nothing to do with wanting to avoid a "fair fight" in the sense of an even duel since nobody involved is going to get one regardless. It's just a reflection of the fact that in a big, complicated fight ACM takes a back seat to SA and gunnery.

Of course those calculations have nothing to do with courtly duels, but then if you're only interested in fighting courtly duels then you won't be over my field trying to vulch people taking off or in the middle of a 20-plane furball, so you don't have to worry about it.

Offline DMBEAR

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2009, 03:40:02 AM »
Just another "I'm justifying my lameness thread."  :aok  Not neccessarily by the OP.  He left enough leeway to skip away from the fire like Richard Simmons from an estrogen zapper.

Ho's happen, but relying on them is a crutch.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:47:28 AM by DMBEAR »

Offline Harp00n

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2009, 08:34:35 AM »
"It takes two, baby.
It takes two, baby.,
just me and you.
You know it takes two.
It takes two, baby.
It takes two, baby,
just me and you."



Offline FBGrave

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2009, 10:06:10 AM »
I personally avoid the HO at all costs and fully expect the opponent to try it.
My goal is to beat the opponent with finess. So I just play the game my way and
don't care what the other guy thinks.

my two canadian cents
Don't go where the road don't go

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2009, 11:22:07 AM »
Slightly off topic:

Hartmann was clearly an exceptional fighter pilot, but let’s can the hero worship.  Life in the Luftwaffe in WWII was markedly different from the USAF.  German pilots were basically flown until they died.  Hartmann’s survival in this meat grinder is remarkable.  But, it also greatly increases the number of sorties and kills.  The USAF flew tours.  After so many missions, a pilot was reassigned.  And, it would appear, Americans flew less often.  Chuck Yeager flew 61 missions in 14 months.  Hartmann flew 1,404 missions in 32 months. 

Hartmann claimed 352 aerial victories (of which 345 were won against the Soviet Air Force, and 260 of which were fighters).  The early war Soviets were hand drawing sights on their windscreens, per Hartmann himself.  Guys like Yeager had to down guys like Hartmann. 

There's no denying Hartmann’s skill.  Let’s just get some perspective.

Footnote:  Karaya was Hartmann’s call sign.   :salute Salute to AHII Karaya for the historical reference.
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