Question about a P-51 maneuver

[FLS]

I saw the show and I don't recall the pilot saying that he could duplicate the maneuver himself. 

[BnZs]

allison ponies would turn different than merlin powered aircraft so the test doesn't really show anything interesting at all.

It is the same airframe. In the test shown WW carefully calibrated the weight of the P-51B to that of a the P-51A. Thus a perfect test. Note that because the P-40E's weight was brought up to P-40F levels by use of a drop tank hanging in the breeze, the turn performance of the Warhawk should be worse relative the P-51 than in the real world test, not better.


Thorsim, aren't you tired of harping on the full flaps thing yet? Flaps do what they are supposed to do in AHII...create lift and drag. As far as I know, every plane in the game gets its best sustained turn rate at 0, 1, or at most 2 notches of flaps, turn rate falling off with more flap deployment. Full flaps are useful for basically one thing, when you need to fly as slowly as possible. Like when landing. Otherwise, they are a hindrance. Your idea that it should be impossible to maneuver with them deployed though...completely without basis.

[thorsim]

It is the same airframe. In the test shown WW carefully calibrated the weight of the P-51B to that of a the P-51A. Thus a perfect test. Note that because the P-40E's weight was brought up to P-40F levels by use of a drop tank hanging in the breeze, the turn performance of the Warhawk should be worse relative the P-51 than in the real world test, not better.

Thorsim, aren't you tired of harping on the full flaps thing yet? Flaps do what they are supposed to do in AHII...create lift and drag. As far as I know, every plane in the game gets its best sustained turn rate at 0, 1, or at most 2 notches of flaps, turn rate falling off with more flap deployment. Full flaps are useful for basically one thing, when you need to fly as slowly as possible. Like when landing. Otherwise, they are a hindrance. Your idea that it should be impossible to maneuver with them deployed though...completely without basis.

same airframe (for the B maybe) different engines, weights added, weight added at different places which means different COG or more weight to re balance, different power loading ...

remember you are talking about the edges of the envelope which means little problems may become very prominent.

the links below show what happens with tons of BHP big props and lots of flaps at low altitudes ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfGtdEx18Q

sorry about these for the associated losses but this is what often happens when a surprise addition of power and it's associated prop torque takes over at low speeds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0J3hhj4X8&feature=related

and that is why they don't test for "max maneuverability" at low speed low alt with flaps fully deployed ...

full flaps and dogfighting very very bad in the real world "." it should be much more like that here,
as it is now pilots are operating well away from the know advantages of their aircraft because there are far too few represented consequences for such silliness.

i don't think i can be more clear on this topic ...

no offense

+S+ 

t

[Chalenge]

full flaps and dogfighting very very bad in the real world "." it should be much more like that here,
as it is now pilots are operating well away from the know advantages of their aircraft because there are far too few represented consequences for such silliness.

It is a very bad idea here but there are a lot more people willing to fly that way also.

[thorsim]

It is a very bad idea here but there are a lot more people willing to fly that way also.

well if the game represented the reasons why it is a bad idea more, then things would probably change in that regard ...

no offense

+S+

t

[Yeager]

well if the game represented the reasons why it is a bad idea more, then things would probably change in that regard ...

You mean if people really died? what else could you possibly mean.......

Give it up thor. it is a game.  That is all it is.  All it should be.  Unless you are willing to die playing a game.....go right ahead, but I will stay well clear of you if you understand my meaning.

[thorsim]

You mean if people really died? what else could you possibly mean.......

Give it up thor. it is a game.  That is all it is.  All it should be.  Unless you are willing to die playing a game.....go right ahead, but I will stay well clear of you if you understand my meaning.

no i mean planes crashed, a lot. 

i suspect if planes crashed here a lot more then there would a lot fewer legitimate complaints about the flaps in AH.  why should i give it up?   

[Guppy35]

no i mean planes crashed, a lot. 

i suspect if planes crashed here a lot more then there would a lot fewer legitimate complaints about the flaps in AH.  why should i give it up?   

Because you missed Yeager's point completely.  We get to do more then real life because we can risk more then real life without really dying.

If I was really going to die, you bet I wouldn't be hanging out in a 38G on the deck with the flaps out.  The consequences of  getting that low and slow could be permanent.  But since I get a new cartoon airplane every time, taking my 38G into that situation is for the challenge of getting the most out of it, not life or death.

Quoting 'Twelve to One" the 5th AF fighter pilot's 'bible'.  Two real 80th Headhunters

Allen Hill, pilot of "Hills Angels" in the 80th FS

"In cases where you are really latched, it doesn't matter much what you do, but do something and do it violently"

Cy Homer of the 80th

"When caught just above the tree tops or water at slow speed, you can only hope to throw his aim off by jerking and skidding, at the same time striving for altitude. Drop full flaps if neccessary--anything to make him overshoot."

"If you find your tail is dirty, then it is time to get violent at the controls"


I think you'd find, if you flew a scenario that folks like myself fly it differently as one life does matter.  But flying 'safe' in the MA seems just silly to me.  I want to see how far I can take it, even if it means losing, as I am apt to do more often then not

[colmbo]

below show what happens with tons of BHP big props and lots of flaps at low altitudes ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfGtdEx18Q

sorry about these for the associated losses but this is what often happens when a surprise addition of power and it's associated prop torque takes over at low speeds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0J3hhj4X8&feature=related

No they don't.   With the exception of the Corsair that rolled off to the left short of the deck the Corsair crashes were just bad landings...nothing to do with torque or P-factor.  Same for the vid of the Mustangs crashing at Oshkosh.  Did you happen to notice in the Mustang crash that it rolled to the right which is against engine torque?

[Guppy35]

My favorite 'flaps' story.  As it was much the same as Cy Homer was talking about, it seems to fit.  Down low, in a spot, anything goes.  Oh and the 500 pounders were still on the 38

Lt. Royal Madden  from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

[Kuhn]

My favorite 'flaps' story.  As it was much the same as Cy Homer was talking about, it seems to fit.  Down low, in a spot, anything goes.  Oh and the 500 pounders were still on the 38

Lt. Royal Madden  from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

I wonder if it's all that noticeable when the bombs are jettisoned? I can see when in the heat of battle how one wouldn't notice.

[thorsim]

No they don't.   With the exception of the Corsair that rolled off to the left short of the deck

that is an exact example of my point that you just previously said wasn't ...

nothing to do with torque or P-factor.  Same for the vid of the Mustangs crashing at Oshkosh.  Did you happen to notice in the Mustang crash that it rolled to the right which is against engine torque?

all the rest are examples of poor maneuverability and controllability, lack of options in a very flap extended "dirty" airframe. all the bad landings were unable to be corrected or successfully aborted because of the pilots lack of alternatives in that extreme flap deployment configuration at low speeds ...
(the very condition the same planes excel at in AH)

did you notice col that the prop is what hit the other plane?
so it was the force from the prop impact that caused the roll on the pony, it may not have been the normal engine torque, but it was still torque from the prop that caused the roll he was unable to correct. 

if you believe i am mistaken col why don't you go ahead and feel free to describe the specific aerodynamic forces acting on the pony that you think caused the crash, after all he was still flying after the prop impact was he not?

i am not saying it couldn't be done, but it should clearly be a bad choice.  the way it is in the game is such that there are very few consequences.  the situation is so skewed that many players are choosing to move away from the altitude and speed advantages they have in a fight because they prefer the situation where they should be at an extreme disadvantage.  guys are consistently "jamming on the breaks" in their escorts to enter a turn fight against a historically dominant turn fighter because the flaps the way they are IN THE GAME allow them to do that.

no offense

+S+

 t

[thorsim]

guppy and yeager what you fail to see in my point is that if the virtual consequences were more in line with TRW the reluctance in game would also mirror the situation in real life.

no you shouldn't die in the real world for doing something stupid in a video game.

but that doesn't mean you should be rewarded for being stupid in the video game where the same decision in the real world would likely kill you, does it?  

especially in a game that "mirrors" the real world ...

right?

no offense

+S+

t

[BnZs]

same airframe (for the B maybe) different engines, weights added, weight added at different places which means different COG or more weight to re balance, different power loading ...

A silly objection. The only difference significant between a P-51A and a P-51B being tested at the same weight is the additional horsepower of the B.  More power in same airframe,  weighted to produce the same wingloading will produce better performance, not worse. You should know this, but then again you're the same fellow who spoke blithely of the ill effects of the P-38's "torque"...


According to the Hitech, torque effects are modeled fully and correctly in AHII. And if you don't think being at low-speed high AoA high power in AHII in a single-engine bird cannot produce a violent departure, you haven't flown enough.

same airframe (for the B maybe) different engines, weights added, weight added at different places which means different COG or more weight to re balance, different power loading ...

remember you are talking about the edges of the envelope which means little problems may become very prominent.

the links below show what happens with tons of BHP big props and lots of flaps at low altitudes ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfGtdEx18Q

sorry about these for the associated losses but this is what often happens when a surprise addition of power and it's associated prop torque takes over at low speeds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0J3hhj4X8&feature=related

and that is why they don't test for "max maneuverability" at low speed low alt with flaps fully deployed ...

full flaps and dogfighting very very bad in the real world "." it should be much more like that here,
as it is now pilots are operating well away from the know advantages of their aircraft because there are far too few represented consequences for such silliness.

i don't think i can be more clear on this topic ...

no offense

+S+ 

t

[BnZs]

all the rest are examples of poor maneuverability and controllability, lack of options in a very flap extended "dirty" airframe. 

Once again, if you have not noticed a decay in maneuverability at low airspeeds with all the flaps hanging out in AHII, then you have not flown the game.