Question about a P-51 maneuver

[thorsim]

actually you are incorrect again i do just fine vs. the flap deployment planes in general ...

but then you will find that how i am doing does not have much bearing on what is imo correct or incorrect in the game, it is the people who are extensively using the flaps in ways that would kill them in the real world who's success rate would change if the flaps were more realistic.

for example i believe the dive flap should bleed e in the game the way it did in the real world, that would only serve to improve the ability for the 38 to slow down, it would not make it "slower" as we discussed at length in another thread.

conversely i have not demanded attention be taken to bring the p40s flaps back in line with it's POS, as that is against my belief that such things are not about the POS but rather the physics of flight.  

in no case will you find me advocating something i believe to be wrong just because it makes my time in the game more difficult.  i find these games to be too easy in general, however when i see people arguing that they should have a very good chance in a 38 vs. a well flown spitfire in an maneuver fight it just imo contributes to an overall emerson problem that happens when things are tweaked to the point of being way beyond reality.

i will kill and live in whatever pice of crap you want to put me in because i stick to the envelopes of the planes.  when the envelopes are determined by fairie tales, well then i tend to express frustration.

no offense

+S+

t

Why would it be frightening since the way you claim flaps are used in game is not the way I use them at all?  

Now for the trademark brutal honesty of Ack-Ack...

It's starting to sound more and more that you're getting your arse handed back to by those of us that fly "flap adjustable planes" and you're looking for a way to try and level the playing field so you can be competitive.  Don't know about you, but trying to pork the flaps (when there is nothing wrong with them) or trying to force people to use them how you think should be used is not the way to go about and improving one's skill.

Just sayin'

ack-ack

 

[Chalenge]

AHII too easy? Now I know you havent flown this game much.

[uptown]

wow, this is just nuts. I completely lost now 

[thorsim]

AHII too easy? Now I know you havent flown this game much.

just a different level of expectations i guess ...

some of us grew up in tougher neighborhoods than others ...

no offense

++S++

t

[Chalenge]

Thats hilarious since I dont believe you have grown up at all! Here. Enjoy some real aerobatics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3dPGEKGx9Y&feature=PlayList&p=27CBCF67B65DF865&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

[Strip]

I got five buck thorsim could not own the ground underneath him....

Any takers?

Strip

[MutleyBR]

Thats hilarious since I dont believe you have grown up at all! Here. Enjoy some real aerobatics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3dPGEKGx9Y&feature=PlayList&p=27CBCF67B65DF865&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

Would like to see him doing a 360 degrees left turn doing a roll TO THE RIGHT...

As described in the book "Conquest of lines and simetry" , by Duane Cole 

Whe I read it got a knot in my head... And I´ve seen it done in real life in Red Bull Air Races in Rio.




Mutley

[Chalenge]

I have seen Patty Wagstaff and a few others do it and its pretty common anymore.

I have been thinking about it for days now and I cant come up with a reason that flaps would cause any kind of abrupt interruption of flight except at stall speed which would be lower anyway because of flaps being deployed. I kept hoping he would mention some reason for his way of thinking but in the end it sounds more like stubborn unwillingness to admit having been mistaken about it.

I think I have every flight sim out for PC and AHII is about the hardest one so this latest comment was just bluff and brashness.

[BnZs]

actually you are incorrect again i do just fine vs. the flap deployment planes in general ...

but then you will find that how i am doing does not have much bearing on what is imo correct or incorrect in the game, it is the people who are extensively using the flaps in ways that would kill them in the real world who's success rate would change if the flaps were more realistic.

You apparently have some odd ideas about flaps. They increase a wing's lift and drag. They do not make an aircraft into a deathtrap that departs at the slightest control input. It would make little sense to deploy them prior to *landing* if that were the case.

for example i believe the dive flap should bleed e in the game the way it did in the real world, that would only serve to improve the ability for the 38 to slow down, it would not make it "slower" as we discussed at length in another thread.

This is a non-issue. If the very slight drag that the 38L's dive flaps would cause were modeled, it would do nothing but slightly improve the dive-flap's usefulness. I assure you, true dive brakes that could be used for rapid decleration would be a very welcome addition to any fighter plane in AHII.

 i find these games to be too easy in general,

  Oh dear, are you one of those people who think "harder=more realistic" in a flight sim? Haven't you ever heard that the few vets who've tried these sims tend to be of the opinion that it is harder than flying the real thing?

however when i see people arguing that they should have a very good chance in a 38 vs. a well flown spitfire in an maneuver fight it just imo contributes to an overall emerson problem that happens when things are tweaked to the point of being way beyond reality.

And here we come to what is basically an expression of ignorance with nothing to back it up. There is no implicit reason why the 38 should *not* stand a good chance in a fight with the Spitfire. The 38 was known as a good-turning airplane, as the combat reports against 109s demonstrate. Further, the 38J/Lin AHII, does not match the Spitfire in either sustained rate or radius of turn. Its advantage is having no net torque at low speed/high power, which is a direct result of being a counter-rotating twin vrs. a single engine. All that being said, if you are in a SpitIX/VIII/XVI and loose a co-e fight with a 38, it will be because you were out-flown, not because of the airplane was superior.

[Ack-Ack]

actually you are incorrect again i do just fine vs. the flap deployment planes in general ...

but then you will find that how i am doing does not have much bearing on what is imo correct or incorrect in the game, it is the people who are extensively using the flaps in ways that would kill them in the real world who's success rate would change if the flaps were more realistic.

you have yet so show a single example how the flaps are incorrectly modeled for any plane in the game.  However, it does appear that you want to change player flying behavior by changing the flap modeling in game.

for example i believe the dive flap should bleed e in the game the way it did in the real world, that would only serve to improve the ability for the 38 to slow down, it would not make it "slower" as we discussed at length in another thread.

Again, you clearly show that you don't know how the dive flaps in the P-38 worked.  They were not speed brakes and did not act as such when deployed.  Yes, they did add drag to the plane but it was not significant enough to act as any sort of speed/air brake and P-38 pilots did not use the dive flaps to slow them down.  The most significant loss of energy when using the dive flaps was the energy lost when the nose pitched up and not the dive flaps themselves.

Please show any sort of data that proves what you're saying.  You didn't in the last thread and I seriously doubt you'll be able to provide any this time around.

in no case will you find me advocating something i believe to be wrong just because it makes my time in the game more difficult.  i find these games to be too easy in general, however when i see people arguing that they should have a very good chance in a 38 vs. a well flown spitfire in an maneuver fight it just imo contributes to an overall emerson problem that happens when things are tweaked to the point of being way beyond reality.

Actually, it depends on the situation in a P-38 vs. Spitfire fight and the type of Spitfire a P-38 is fighting against.  The Spitfire is deadliest at the medium speed ranges and no matter how good you are in the P-38, the P-38 is going to get chewed up if it fights the Spitfire at that speed range, regardless of the skill level of the Spitfire pilot.  

The reason why a lot of us more experienced P-38 drivers in game are able to be successful against the various types of Spitfires is that we don't fight the Spitfire's game.  You won't see me engage in a turn fight with a Spitfire at mediums speeds, because it's suicide.  However, I will engage one in a high speed turn fight (above 300mph IAS) where I do have the slight edge and keep the fight in the vertical using vertical turns or if things are desperate try and force the fight at very low to stall speeds, where I can take advantage of my zero torque, lower stall speed and better low speed handling, in cases like that, I'll use the Cloverleaf maneuver.  That maneuver allows me to take advantage of my low stall speed, zero torque and better low speed handling but its definitely not a maneuver that is 100% successful.

You're just want the flight models changed so you can force players to fly how you want them to.

i will kill and live in whatever pice of crap you want to put me in because i stick to the envelopes of the planes.  when the envelopes are determined by fairie tales, well then i tend to express frustration.

no offense

+S+

t

The above just proves again you're trying to change the flight model to change player flying behavior without showing there is anything wrong with the flight model to begin with.  Just another variation of "I want you to fly my way!" cries that pollute these forums.


ack-ack

[Guppy35]

guppy and yeager what you fail to see in my point is that if the virtual consequences were more in line with TRW the reluctance in game would also mirror the situation in real life.

no you shouldn't die in the real world for doing something stupid in a video game.

but that doesn't mean you should be rewarded for being stupid in the video game where the same decision in the real world would likely kill you, does it?  

especially in a game that "mirrors" the real world ...

right?

no offense

+S+

t

There is nothing real world about this.  We aren't assigned airplanes. We don't fly missions we don't want to.  You aren't flying Val's off Rabaul for example.

You ignored the quote from Cy Homer, real life 38 Ace about going full flaps if you have to, if it means clearing your tail and forcing an overshoot.

Again, given one life and done in this game, I'd play it alot differently.  As I mentioned, in a scenario with one life, I'm not going to put myself in a spot with everything hanging out, unless it's as a last resort to survive.  Kinda real life thinking based on Cy Homer's quote.  When we flew DGS at 30K you can bet the 38 guys weren't 'flapping' it in the fight.  It was keep the speed up, think ahead of the fight, and don't do something dumb.  One life was it.  Interestingly enough, the one fight I got into that went to the deck I did use the flaps, and it 'saved' my cartoon one life, as my wingman was able to finally get the guy who shot me full of holes,.

The MA allows me to test my cartoon flying skills against other cartoon pilots.  Why would I not use every tool at my disposal in a knock down, drag out fight on the deck?  And with the limited time I get to play, I'll be damned if I'm going to fly the MA like it's real life as I don't have time to waste setting every fight up in my favor, nor would I want to.   That's boring

That was my point in quoting the 9thAF 38 driver.  They got bounced, were outnumbered and did whatever they had to.  He used flaps often and it saved his life for real.  Whether or not he went full flaps is beside the point.  He used the tools he had to win the fight. 

You've shown me nothing to say the flight model is out of kilter here or that flap use is wrong.   We aren't flying for real with real life consequences.  We're flying for fun, and the challenge of cartoon air combat

[colmbo]

all the rest are examples of poor maneuverability and controllability,

No, they're examples of poorly flown approaches or poor technique once over the deck.   The limitations YOU think exist due to flap extension make folks that have actually flown airplanes think WTF!?  Where do you come up with this stuff?  Do you do drugs?  Do you have an alcohol problem?  You have absolutely no flying experience yet continually, historically argue with people who do have the experience.  Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't true.

did you notice col that the prop is what hit the other plane?.........so it was the force from the prop impact that caused the roll on the pony, it may not have been the normal engine torque, but it was still torque from the prop that caused the roll he was unable to correct.

Looked more like it was the right wing that hit the rudder of the lead Mustang..hence the yaw to the right.  Yaw causes roll.   And the prop hitting the airplane is still going to cause a roll to the left.  Torque doesn't care what the prop is acting against...air or aluminum...it's going to roll left from torque.
  

[thorsim]

seems to me col you have stated flaps are "wrong" in other similar games as well ...

you can all argue that almost doubling you drag flying very near you stall speeds and then maneuvering hard is perfectly fine if you want, but the all mighty POHs say different don't they ...

as far as why things should be sketchy i will ask you experts some questions ...

what is the difference between your stall speeds and your last two highest deflection deployment speeds ...

my looking for the pony gives you about 90 mph to play with between stall speed and 40 degrees of flaps.

if you are at max flap deployment that buffer is only 60 mph ...

you are already slow, your drag should be between 150% -200% of normal, you have no more BHP so your ability to accelerate, climb, turn sharply, roll (imagine your inverted AOA to maintain level flight) or maneuver in any direction in any axis is significantly reduced ...

all of that should make doing all those things very difficult to accomplish with only 60-90 mph as a buffer between success and stall ...

how much bank or climb or skid does it take to bleed 60 mph?  

i still have seen no accounts of high flap deflection combats from all you historians, something that is common in these games ...

ACM in these extremely deployed states seems to me to be a pretty poor decision.
one that should have dire consequences, even if they are just virtual.

so here i am discussing the "weather" with people who can not be convinced of anything until we get the paper from the news stand, even after having to walk three blocks outside in the weather to get there.

another "brakes don't slow you down AHBBS moment"  

In our game, to really succeed in some knock-down scissors fights you have to be prepared to drop full flaps ...

i again invite any of you to post opposing videos or accounts showing planes doing acrobatics with full flap deployment and how perfectly easy and probable it is for this kind of ACM to be so common in the game.

No, they're examples of poorly flown approaches or poor technique once over the deck.   The limitations YOU think exist due to flap extension make folks that have actually flown airplanes think WTF!?  Where do you come up with this stuff?  Do you do drugs?  Do you have an alcohol problem?  You have absolutely no flying experience yet continually, historically argue with people who do have the experience.  Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't true.

so the lack of controllability in that state has nothing to do with anything, they all just sucked ...

do you always resort to personal attacks when you are having difficulty in a discussion?

very very nice on both accounts col ...

+S+

t

[Guppy35]

i again invite any of you to post opposing videos or accounts showing planes doing acrobatics with full flap deployment and how perfectly easy and probable it is for this kind of ACM to be so common in the game.

Again you miss the point.  What it appears you want, is for there to be some way to make people fly like their lives depended on it.  But in the game if I make a mistake, my life doesn't depend on it.  Because of that, we can with no fear, or consequence, take our cartoon planes to the edge and fly them in ways that would not be conducive to long life in a combat situation if we failed at them.  Does that mean I haven't stalled it too low and slow and augered?  Heck no!  I do it often trying to fight on the edge.  I guess the aerodynamics worked in that case as I departed controlled flight and lost my cartoon life.

At this point I wonder why you care?  The MA isn't real, we aren't going to die and many of us cartoon pilots are going to use all the tools our cartoon planes offer us.  You know why?  Because that's the challenge and the fun for some of us.

I note you never responded to my comments about how folks fly in scenarios vs how they fly in the MA.  I think the world you want for your cartoon pilot is one based on one life and done.  You can have it if you want it, just not in the world of MA.  Asking us to play that way is just silly and pointless.  Then again if you want to fly that way in the MA, go for it.  Your choice, just like it's mine to fly it the way I like to.

[thorsim]

do you think if it was more difficult and players were less able to avoid departing in these circumstances ...

do you think that fewer pilots would choose to get into those situations?

because that is my point ...

along with the fact that this type of flying is very unrealistic ...

and the way flaps work in these games artificially expands the envelopes of some planes so that the
match-ups are skewed and out of balance, which hurts the games credibility and immersion factor.

Again you miss the point.  What it appears you want, is for there to be some way to make people fly like their lives depended on it.  But in the game if I make a mistake, my life doesn't depend on it.  Because of that, we can with no fear, or consequence, take our cartoon planes to the edge and fly them in ways that would not be conducive to long life in a combat situation if we failed at them.  Does that mean I haven't stalled it too low and slow and augered?  Heck no!  I do it often trying to fight on the edge.  I guess the aerodynamics worked in that case as I departed controlled flight and lost my cartoon life.

At this point I wonder why you care?  The MA isn't real, we aren't going to die and many of us cartoon pilots are going to use all the tools our cartoon planes offer us.  You know why?  Because that's the challenge and the fun for some of us.

I note you never responded to my comments about how folks fly in scenarios vs how they fly in the MA.  I think the world you want for your cartoon pilot is one based on one life and done.  You can have it if you want it, just not in the world of MA.  Asking us to play that way is just silly and pointless.  Then again if you want to fly that way in the MA, go for it.  Your choice, just like it's mine to fly it the way I like to.