Minengeschoss

[Wilbus]

A  direct hit, or even a close hit buy an 88mm that goes off will most difinatly kill a 4 engined heavy buff. So will 1 or 2 shots from a 50mm, the balst power of a 50mm isn't just 2.5 times greater then a 20mm, it is FAR greater then that of a 20mm.

MG151's in AH do does far from the same dammage as the hispano, at all ranges nomather where at the enemy plane you shoot.



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[SageFIN]

Vermillion:
1) Unless you have recieved specific data from HTC, all you know about the damage model are just your own speculations (which might be partly or entirely correct, however).

2) Why I think that the hangar test isn't quite representative is because some beltings (well, the synthesis ammo AH planes fire) might include more HE component than some others. Furthermore, I believe that HE ammo has more destructive effect on the hangars and thus drawing conclusions from the hangar test on the weapons' capability for shooting down planes isn't justified.

3) Testing the weapons in any other way other than the hangar test is not very practical. So shooting at the hangars is the best testing procedure available I think, though I would also say that it probably isn't representative. So you may now stop complaining about people who don't test the guns themselves. What good would it do when all they'd be able to perform (well, at least with any consistency) is the hangar test? They'd get the very same results unless something has changed in the game engine.

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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.

[Vermillion]

SageFin, I have described in detail a way in which you can test each and every gun against an aircraft damage model, in a thread where me and Grunherz discussed this very same issue about a month ago in this forum. Look around for it if your interested.

All it takes is one pilot in a B17, one in a fighter with the "test gun", the TA, and killshooter off. Oh and about 2-3 hours testing time, more if you want to do the test at different ranges. This would be conducted on the ground in a static situation as too remove a pilots skill in hitting a moving target.

I have volunteered to help do these tests, but not a single pilot has stepped forward or volunteered to actually help collect the data.

Oh and SageFin, yes I do probably know more about the inner workings of Aces High than the average player.

When I helped form, organize, and lead the Aces High Scenario Corps (for over a year), I spent many an evening on the telephone with Pyro discussing aspects of the game, how things worked, and how to better plan/host historical events. But obviously I agreed to not disclose any specific information that is not general information, or "common knowledge" on this BBS.  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[MANDOBLE]

Verm, you are forgetting a primary factor: the personal experience of each player.

Once you have shoot down thousands of planes in hundreds of different situations and been shoot down by thousands of planes, you, probably, will have a very precise idea of what your weapons can do and what other weapons can do to your plane. This is like a continuous test with a more target rich environment than just a single B17 or an hangar.

[Vermillion]

Mandoble wrote:
 

Once you have shoot down thousands of planes in hundreds of different situations and been shoot down by thousands of planes, you, probably, will have a very precise idea of what your weapons can do and what other weapons can do to your plane. This is like a continuous test with a more target rich environment than just a single B17 or an hangar

*sigh*

I'm not quite sure what your getting at Mandoble.  Over in the other thread, you said your concerns were purely with the damage capability of the cannons, and not with the capacity to hit with them (ROF, Trajectory, and muzzle velocity).

But now in this thread your again talking about the overall capability of the weapon to kill the enemy which includes these factors.

Which is it? Choose which aspect you have problems with and stick to that issue. Again. Is it damage? Or is it ballistic capabilities?

Once you choose one of the two, we can design an empirical test to compare the relative capabilities of the different guns in Aces High.

Right now you are dancing around the issue, changing your arguement to make your point in whichever thread.

I honestly want to solve this issue with the Luftwaffe contingent ONCE and FOR ALL, and I've said I'm willing to help collect the data and present the results to the community.

So lets work together and do some testing and see what the results are.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[MANDOBLE]

No Verm, it seems I missed one of your replies while writting mine. In my last post I was referring to:
"Some people always complain that the test is wrong (they never really explain how), but are unwilling to do any testing themselves."

About the 151/20 itself my points are as follows:
1 - ROF, while it is probably well modeled, once we go online it is a real problem with even a minimum warp effect. Of course, this point is mainly related to a "gameplay concesion", not to the gun modeling itself.

2 - Punch power. Well, we have discused the "probable" mixture of ammunitions that compose one of our "big bullets". The conclusion was that one hispano hit should be more destructive that a 151/20 hit, but not much more. Well, I dont know where is the frontier between causing critical damage with a single hit or not, but the "small" difference between hispano and 151/20 falls just in middle of that frontier. I use only cannons or only guns, except when attacking buffs, and in my personal experience, I need to light up the target almost as much as with 50s to ensure destructive effects. In the other hand, a light touch with hispanos results 99% of the times in evident damage, and most probably critical damage to the target.

3 - General ballistics: No compliances about this.

4 - Dispersion: tremendous, but it is also enormous in the case of russian guns. Just use max zoom with 190A8 landed and stopped and start firing bullet by bullet, you'll notice the effect inmediatelly.

5 - Firing stability: Well, I've tested only F4U1C and Spit with hispanos. Firing the 4x20 or even 2x20 in the 190 procuces tremendous vibration effects and the 190 becomes a really unestable gun platform. In the other hand, Spits or Hogs are extremelly stable firing platforms. AFAIK the vibration effects firing the hispano were much more noticeable than with 151/20 or 108.

Of course, I'm open to test with you whatever you want. Just email me to matias.s@terra.es.