Author Topic: Mirrors?  (Read 1474 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Mirrors?
« on: October 06, 2009, 11:30:59 AM »
I've heard numerous anecdotes of the use of rear-view mirrors on WWII A/C canopies. The last one I heard talking of this was Gunther Rall. It was on a "Clash of Wings" (Military channel) interview. He was recounting getting shot down - and losing a thumb - by a P-47. Prior to that tale, he referred to the fact that he'd put mirrors on his 109 canopy. He said it was difficult to see much through them because they'd vibrate badly. He said, and I paraphrase, "if you could see anything in that mirror, it was time to bail out."

We have no mirrors in AHII. Why? They were a fairly common upfit.

Here's an example from a Typh: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/typhoontest.html
If you can't see it, search for the word mirror.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 11:38:46 AM »
We have no mirrors in AHII. Why? They were a fairly common upfit.

Did you try to use the "search" button? Has been discussed lots of times.  ;)
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Offline LLogann

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 12:19:35 PM »
That's alot of work for the end user.............. 

If you can't see it, search for the word mirror.

But.... What Lusche said......  :aok
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Offline ImADot

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 12:21:01 PM »
Question:

We have no mirrors in AHII. Why? They were a fairly common upfit.

Answer:

...he'd put mirrors on his 109 canopy. He said it was difficult to see much through them because they'd vibrate badly.

So, you want HTC to add properly-modelled mirrors?  You might as well just add a rectangle filled with a static image of gibberish.  Then you'd have what they had.   ;)
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 12:39:40 PM »
Good answers - yes, I should've searched, just to see what has gone before.

Here's the thing, though. Last time I searched up a topic on a couple of turn radius and rate questions I had, I came across a thread that touched on both as well as the topic of max bank angle. I did some development on the ideas using some common aero formulas and some reasoning.

Skuzzy then wiped out the whole thing and hit me with a "punting" violation. According to him, since Simaril no longer posts here and the thread was a few years old, I was clearly engaged in an attempt to bring an outdated post back to the top of the list.

I understand why he hit me with the violation. I wonder if he understands the uninrtended consequence of it. You can search, true, but any follow-ups better be via a new thread - at which point you have to waste a bunch of time reframing the context - it's so much easier just to start a new thread on the same old crap. My own recommendation would be, if the post is substantive, so what if the issue gets punted up to the top of the queue? Obvious punts are another matter - posts of little/no substance intended to promote an item to the top of the queue should be snuffed out.

There. I've now hijacked my own thread. Perhaps I can draw a violation flag.

 As for rectangles of gibberish, there are informative rectangles of gibberish and less useful forms of the same... That, and I doubt the vibration was anything like constant - though here the pain in th a** factor begins to play. After all, the thing will have some set of resonant freq dependent on the mount and will be excited by either large amplitude forces off-resonance or smaller ones on-resonance. Perhaps a "standard mount" might be developed across the board..? My suspicion: at the right engine rpm and aero loads, the thing was probably fairly well settled - other times, a mere blur. Figure a rigid mount to the canopy structure and it would just slightly mass-damp the canopy frame, right?

Agreed, though... probably not worth the (major) hassle...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 01:07:11 PM by PJ_Godzilla »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 01:01:44 PM »
Use search for reading only.... never post
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 01:44:11 PM »
Use search for reading only.... never post

And then you can start a new thread referencing the old thread and not get the "have you tried searching?" response.

Anyway, the real reason there are no mirrors, besides stated above, is a performance issue.  Not only would your computer need to render the "big" view, it would also have to separately render the video seen in the mirror. 

Frame rate killer.


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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 02:12:48 PM »
As for rectangles of gibberish, there are informative rectangles of gibberish and less useful forms of the same... That, and I doubt the vibration was anything like constant - though here the pain in th a** factor begins to play. After all, the thing will have some set of resonant freq dependent on the mount and will be excited by either large amplitude forces off-resonance or smaller ones on-resonance. Perhaps a "standard mount" might be developed across the board..? My suspicion: at the right engine rpm and aero loads, the thing was probably fairly well settled - other times, a mere blur. Figure a rigid mount to the canopy structure and it would just slightly mass-damp the canopy frame, right?

Agreed, though... probably not worth the (major) hassle...
Man, I'm digging through my back-log of waves knowledge now... makes me wish I still had my book.

From what I remember, can't you use a huge impedance mismatched material as the mount? I.e., since
we are given the metal frame and glass mirror, we can pick a material to mount the mirror in such that its natural impedance will be very different from that of either the frame, the mirror, or both. This would reduce its transmission coefficient.

Raises an interesting question: how historical are the solutions we propose to the mirror problem?
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 02:15:46 PM »
Basically, with AH's viewing system, mirrors would give you *nothing* you don't already have, but would greatly increase the graphics load.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 03:20:12 PM »
Man, I'm digging through my back-log of waves knowledge now... makes me wish I still had my book.

From what I remember, can't you use a huge impedance mismatched material as the mount? I.e., since
we are given the metal frame and glass mirror, we can pick a material to mount the mirror in such that its natural impedance will be very different from that of either the frame, the mirror, or both. This would reduce its transmission coefficient.

Raises an interesting question: how historical are the solutions we propose to the mirror problem?

Sure - sounds like classic isolation. I'm going to go hunt around, if I get a few minutes (what are the odds?) and see if I can find more testimony. I seem to recall some British pilots who made good use of the mirror on their Spits.
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 04:15:44 PM »
Basically, with AH's viewing system, mirrors would give you *nothing* you don't already have, but would greatly increase the graphics load.
You could do a cursory check on your six without having to take your focus off your target.

Also, if we implement a non-vibrating mirror, it shouldn't increase graphics load that much. The mirror provides only a thin slice of the overall rear view after all.

It would not increase graphics load beyond having an additional section of sky in the forward view - therefore the additional load would at maximum be equivalent to having no cockpit in the forward view. The calculation for what to show in the mirror based on headposition should be negligible compared to the overall graphics load in the first place.

In addition, AH's graphics are highly scaleable anyways. Note that sims as old Jane's USNF implemented a rear view mirror.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 04:17:25 PM by boomerlu »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 04:19:04 PM »
You could do a cursory check on your six without having to take your focus off your target.

Also, if we implement a non-vibrating mirror, it shouldn't increase graphics load that much. The mirror provides only a thin slice of the overall rear view after all.

It would not increase graphics load beyond having an additional section of sky in the forward view - therefore the additional load would at maximum be equivalent to having no cockpit in the forward view. The calculation for what to show in the mirror based on headposition should be negligible compared to the overall graphics load in the first place.

In addition, AH's graphics are highly scaleable anyways. Note that sims as old Jane's USNF implemented a rear view mirror.

In IL2 at normal zooms, the only thing the mirror tells you is that there is an enemy icon somewhere on a LOS with the mirror. Flicking your direct rear view in AHII tells you much more, and doesn't require taking your eye off the target for more than a split second with snap views. Redundant.
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Offline Blooz

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 04:39:35 PM »
Time to bail out?

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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
In IL2 at normal zooms, the only thing the mirror tells you is that there is an enemy icon somewhere on a LOS with the mirror. Flicking your direct rear view in AHII tells you much more, and doesn't require taking your eye off the target for more than a split second with snap views. Redundant.
Except the mirror gives you continuous monitoring of a small slice of your 6. Also, that split second can still be quite significant - what if you get a Check6 call while you are moments away from a shot opportunity? Do you snap view over and risk losing the shot or do you take the shot and risk losing your plane? The mirror removes having to make this decision for a small slice of your rear view.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2009, 04:49:23 PM »
One thing with Il-2 is that it some aircraft had better coverage on their mirrors than the game provides.

IE: The bubble-top F4Us had THREE mirrors on the canopy frame: one on each side and one above. Il-2 only provides the center one, which does restrict the available coverage.
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