Author Topic: a simple question  (Read 840 times)

Offline Saxman

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 01:04:16 PM »
Light is pure "frozen" energy.....

The most powerful form of energy comes from gamma ray bursts, which in simple terms is highly energetic light.

Strip

I think you know what I mean, though. Rather than light-based, some other form of energized particle.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 01:06:48 PM »
What nation has the best space program?
Has to be the US.  Millions of kids taking up space in school every day.
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Offline alskahawk

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 03:25:05 PM »
Has to be the US.  Millions of kids taking up space in school every day.



     :x:rofl  :rofl  :cry

Offline eagl

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 10:33:17 PM »
I'd say it was a toss-up, between China and India.  China is developing FAST, but they have a lot of help from the US (intentional tech transfer, unintentional tech transfer, and traitorous bastages selling them info) and from other nations like Russia.  India is pretty much rolling their own due to sanctions from the US because of India's nuke program.

I'd give India the edge on innovation, but China the nod for rapid progress and active, successful, and fully funded development programs that actually do something new (for them).

Comments on non-winners...

Russia still has a lot of hardware that is reasonably affordable and reliable, but I don't think they're doing much of anything that is really new and they are relying on income from other nations to fund their space program.  As for ESA...  What's ESA done lately that's worked and was revolutionary?  I'm not talking about lofting some neat new astronomical instrument into space...  Anyone can do that.  I'm talking about progressive stuff...  I don't know when the last time was that ESA did anything that nobody else has done.

I won't even go into the US space program, except to say that a lack of focus and enthusiasm is fatal to a space program.  Sending machines up to space is expensive but routine and not very exciting.  Also, if you get to adverse to risk, you'll never do anything worthwhile.  NASA needs to grow a pair and hire some adventurers to pave the way for the scientists who will use mature systems.  But to do anything new and worthwhile you need adventurers and explorers who will take risks with their eyes open, and a management/leadership team that is willing to send them up with a higher margin for failure.  We lost hundreds of pilots while developing our aeronautical systems since the pioneers like the Wright Brothers and Langley had their first fatal accidents.  We've lost a mere fraction of a percent of the number of astronauts when compared to the same amount of time.  Yea a space accident costs more than an airplane accident so the lost resources are greatly multiplied when you lose a spaceship compared to losing one airplane, but excessive concern over human risks are crippling NASA.

Rutan and his team won the x-prize flying a spaceship with a propulsion system that would never leave the drawing board with NASA, let alone earn a manned rating.  The ablative nozzle used with spaceship one is effectively a random vectored thrust nozzle, due to uneven ablation.  That's dangerous as hell.  But they did it, and the pilots survived.  Had they met with disaster, some funding may have dried up but they'd still have a list a mile long for volunteers lining up to be the next test pilot.  That's how you run a space research program...  You take steps to counter hazards and reduce risk, but at some point you light the candle and go for it instead of running endless simulations and design reviews until you run out of money or come up with a foolproof plan that isn't affordable.  Every pioneer in every field of human endeavour for the last 2000 years would agree.
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Offline Strip

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 10:29:45 AM »
Rutan and his team won the x-prize flying a spaceship with a propulsion system that would never leave the drawing board with NASA, let alone earn a manned rating.  The ablative nozzle used with spaceship one is effectively a random vectored thrust nozzle, due to uneven ablation.  That's dangerous as hell.  But they did it, and the pilots survived.  Had they met with disaster, some funding may have dried up but they'd still have a list a mile long for volunteers lining up to be the next test pilot.  That's how you run a space research program...  You take steps to counter hazards and reduce risk, but at some point you light the candle and go for it instead of running endless simulations and design reviews until you run out of money or come up with a foolproof plan that isn't affordable.  Every pioneer in every field of human endeavour for the last 2000 years would agree.


The Space Shuttle SRB's are ablative nozzles, NASA considers them inherently safer than regen or radiation cooled nozzles.

I dont think thats a fair statement to make about Rutan's design.....

Offline CAP1

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 11:43:36 AM »


Rutan and his team won the x-prize flying a spaceship with a propulsion system that would never leave the drawing board with NASA, let alone earn a manned rating.  The ablative nozzle used with spaceship one is effectively a random vectored thrust nozzle, due to uneven ablation.  That's dangerous as hell.  But they did it, and the pilots survived.  Had they met with disaster, some funding may have dried up but they'd still have a list a mile long for volunteers lining up to be the next test pilot.  That's how you run a space research program...  You take steps to counter hazards and reduce risk, but at some point you light the candle and go for it instead of running endless simulations and design reviews until you run out of money or come up with a foolproof plan that isn't affordable.  Every pioneer in every field of human endeavour for the last 2000 years would agree.


actually, they almost did meet with disaster, but it had nothing to do with the propulsion system.
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Offline Blackwulf

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 01:29:05 PM »
I have always wondered, given the shuttle's long term (relatively speaking) capability to remain in space, why a modified shuttle couldn't be used as a lunar orbiter, and the larger payload capacity used to deploy a larger lunar lander with greater capabilities.  Perhaps even a re-supply capability that takes advantage of the cargo bay.
The shuttle develops enough speed after being in orbit to "slingshot" to the moon similar to the Apollo rocket, so it shouldn't be that hard I don't think.



Offline Saxman

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 01:51:39 PM »
I have always wondered, given the shuttle's long term (relatively speaking) capability to remain in space, why a modified shuttle couldn't be used as a lunar orbiter, and the larger payload capacity used to deploy a larger lunar lander with greater capabilities.  Perhaps even a re-supply capability that takes advantage of the cargo bay.
The shuttle develops enough speed after being in orbit to "slingshot" to the moon similar to the Apollo rocket, so it shouldn't be that hard I don't think.




You mean permanently docked somewhere in orbit? The main problem I think would be with keeping the shuttle itself maintained (fuel, repairs, etc). AFAIK, the only manned objects that are permanently kept in space have been the various space stations, and never a self-contained spacecraft or shuttle.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline alskahawk

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2009, 01:56:33 PM »
 I think most of the original shuttles are near the end of their designed lifespan. I don't know how many if any have been built since the 80s.

Offline Saxman

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2009, 02:10:39 PM »
Besides, if you're going to build a permanent orbital spacecraft why bother with a design as outdated as the shuttle? We need to look AHEAD.



:D
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Strip

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2009, 02:34:03 PM »
actually, they almost did meet with disaster, but it had nothing to do with the propulsion system.

Actually...lol....it was from the propulsion system.

The hybrid rocket developed asymmetric thrust causing the vehicle to start spinning......close to 60rpm if I remember correctly.

Strip

Offline CAP1

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2009, 02:44:44 PM »
Actually...lol....it was from the propulsion system.

The hybrid rocket developed asymmetric thrust causing the vehicle to start spinning......close to 60rpm if I remember correctly.

Strip

it was higher than that i think.....but that wasn't anything compared to the elevator trim that got stuck in the full up while mike mellville was out of the atmosphere. had they not gotten it un-stuck(and they almost didn't) he would have not been able to control the ship on re-entry.

 i think it was the first test flight that took him out of the atmosphere.
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Offline Strip

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 02:53:51 PM »
So they had two near fatal accidents then....

Offline Stalwart

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 02:57:53 PM »
Inertia still exists in space. You can't be going one direction then instantaneously stop and jet off in another. For one, Newton doesn't like that...

I know this is tangent to the conversation, but you can have a lot of nerdy fun with this: Ask ten normal intelligent people what would happen if you kicked a bowling ball.  Then ask them what would happen if you kicked a bowling ball on the surface of the moon.  

In my experience, few people understand you will actually break your foot either way.  They seem to think the ball on the moon will have less mass.  :rolleyes:

Offline CAP1

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Re: a simple question
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 03:07:19 PM »
So they had two near fatal accidents then....


yep. and one fatal aftarwards.........when one of the rockets exploded on a test stand.
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