barrel roll defense

[Ardy123]

1. Use shallow dives and fly clean on the dive to gain energy and or seperation. Enough to force him nose down into a higher speed tail chase where you can put the brakes on BEFORE he does and bring it to close scissors or climb out to the top

2. Use the angle off your tail to create angles he can not follow. In lag pursuit the attacker is keeping an angle of your tail. You can use this given angle by increasing it with a nose down hard yoyo's bringing your nose up first. That is to yaw hard into nose down and then force a nose up by you reducing throttle and tork rolling.

Agent,
Thank you for your explanation, do you happen to have a video of either of these maneuvers?

Thanks

[RTHolmes]

apart from timing, I think the key to BRD is speed differential - you want enough that they cant turn with you, but not so much that you cant take a shot on the overshoot or tempt them to dump thier E to turn with you. essentially they will either blow through giving you an overshoot opportunity, or get suckered into a rolling scissors where you already have the advantage.

if they blow through very quickly you may not even need to complete the roll (2nd kill at 2:00ish):

http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/A20%20niki%20pick%20and%20spit%20os_0043.ahf

if they decide to turn with you, the BRD is the first loop of a rolling scissors:

http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/spit8_barrel_roll_defense_vs_la7.ahf

note: at the beginning although I'm off the throttle to maintain the speed differential I nose down a little to give the LA the impression I'm trying to accelerate away, so he'll stay on the gas.

[BillyD]

 Ardy, Great fights tonight! Seems to me you got this down... Anywhoo more film fun. As RTHolmes says sometimes you don't even have to complete the thing and you get a shot....here is a fun one LOL.

www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/acrobat owned.ahf

here is an oversped BRD reversal. Note he does ping me w/ some 50 riccochets. Thus the danger of baiting so close

www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/quantas owned.ahf

Here it is with the nose down twist, upon a newer player as RT mentioned above I point the nose towards the ground but I'm slowing down. Pull up into the scissor and boom

www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/mapp1777.ahf

Here it is failing cause it's too early, lucky the F4 is a bad shot and I get him to overshoot in roll 2. Try that on Mtnman lol yeah right

www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/dominus owned.ahf

[Spatula]

apart from timing, I think the key to BRD is speed differential

Close. What you're really after is a good closure rate. That can be caused by both speed differential and by lead pursuit/angle-off-tail. The good thing about causing a high closure rate caused by the bandit pulling into lead pursuit, is that you can both have the same airspeed but the BRD will still have effect and you have the energy afterwards to follow them up (or at least close enough for a shot). Relying purely on speed differential (eg throttle chops/skidding etc) throws away valuable energy and limits your follow-on options. In practice, i usually employ a balance of both. The balance is situationally dependent.

[RTHolmes]

Close. What you're really after is a good closure rate. That can be caused by both speed differential and by lead pursuit/angle-off-tail.

exactly, you worded it better than me, guess thats why you're the trainer

Here it is with the nose down twist, upon a newer player as RT mentioned above I point the nose towards the ground but I'm slowing down.

its a simple little trick, deception is an essential part of the dogfighting toolbox

[Sonicblu]

alot of excelent info here. Just add my .02 because i been flyin the g 14 alot then switched to the k4.

I have learned to make some of these move effective or more effective you must improve your timing. It is less that 1% that seperates a win from a loss and the level you are trying to fly. Everthing makes a difference. You don't have to get 90% better only 1% but that last 1% is tougher than the first 99%

What i found in the barrel roll defensive keep donig it even when you think it is not working. just about the time you can see it not working and the spit getting guns. He is using it as a last ditch effort to get guns if you stick with it the next roll youll be on his six.  I went to furball lake last night ( no shortage of spits to jump your six in there.) And was just practiseing getting them off my six. Helps with timing alot.

One more thing use the vector displacement roll. when they are coming on your six turn back into them nose down a little to gain E tighten up the turn only if needed as the try to get guns roll with thier wing line there is no way for them to get gun if done right because you are rolling while they are pulling lead. You will end up on there six but lower e. My goal is to keep doing it until they get co -e states. because they will loose e every time they try to get guns. YOU will either end up with a gun solution or a rolling sicissors.

Anyway look me up if you see me. I try to explain better.

[Bruv119]

a decent stick can perform this defence from any angle 360 degrees  it is essential to make yourself bloody hard to hit.

With perfect timing it can produce a couple of seconds of snapshot when you make them routinely your well on your way to ownage!  

executed to perfection right here.  http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk/film.htm

[RTHolmes]

all I see is a black window with Muse playing

[Noah17]

Mtnman,

I noticed in the first film you posted that while rolling over the top of your last barrel roll the film says you're doing 46MPH. Is that really the case or, are the numbers slightly off? I noticed you had full flaps but, flaps or no flaps I've never been able to go up and over at anything close to that speed.

 

[JunkyII]

Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know

Hey Ardy, if I understand correctly your almost saying they are either doing a small YO YO to dump some E or they dont have as much E as you thought they did. If you have a plan that is closing on you slowly I would suggest maybe a split S to see if he will follow you down then cut throttle and preform the BR. Maybe that or point your nose down in the turn to get E and preform maybe another move but theat one will still work honestly.

boomerlu I like to start a slow turn to appear "weak" and draw a con in nice and close. At about 6 to 800 Ill almost do an immelmen(preety much this BR this thread is about) to try to get a shot coming out. The defense against this is either out fight me(not a chance ) or hit wep to extend or go vert for a rope attempt.

[mechanic]

Mtnman,

I noticed in the first film you posted that while rolling over the top of your last barrel roll the film says you're doing 46MPH. Is that really the case or, are the numbers slightly off? I noticed you had full flaps but, flaps or no flaps I've never been able to go up and over at anything close to that speed.

 

forgive me answering before MTN but i think the answer is that he is, at the moment of 46mph, not flying but moving through momentum. After years of practice you get a feel for how to throw the plane up and make it come down in a certain way.

Kind of like throwing a ball in the air and catching it. You have no influence after you release the throw, but you know exactly where it will come back down. 

[TequilaChaser]

Heya Bat,
still got that film of me and maha in the AvsA? I know it is kind of off topic, but it'll show Noah what some of the extremes are on the F4U stall end of the envelope.....

I can not put it back up until the Trainer's website goes back up......

[mtnman]

forgive me answering before MTN but i think the answer is that he is, at the moment of 46mph, not flying but moving through momentum. After years of practice you get a feel for how to throw the plane up and make it come down in a certain way.

Kind of like throwing a ball in the air and catching it. You have no influence after you release the throw, but you know exactly where it will come back down. 

Thanks BatfinkV!

I'm working night shift this weekend, and have been all sorts of busy in between shifts too.  I've had a chance to glance at the Forums, but not really to answer...

And yes, that's exactly what I would have posted myself, and that's a great analogy.  The speed isn't "off" in the flim, I'm actually moving that slowly.  But I don't have control at that point.  I enter with enough speed, and just "coast" through the period where I'm waiting for my speed to come back up.  So yes, Noah17, I was at 46mph for a moment, but I entered that maneuver at 150mph...

In reality, I don't find anything less than about 120MPH very "useful" in the F4U (and 120 is even pretty useless).  It stalls at just under 80, if I go nose up and try to "hang", I can get it down to just under 60, and I may occasionally "launch" myself on a trajectory that will allow me to coast through part of a maneuver very slowly (as you mentioned), but I'm not actually "under control" or making the airplane do anything while I'm that slow.  As a matter of fact, if I try to control the plane at that point I very well may put it into something hairy and end up in the dirt (or shot).  I've heard many claims about ultra-slow maneuvering by the hog, I even saw someone post something about being able to bring the nose up at 60mph for a shot, lol.  In reality, I can't do it, and haven't even seen film of others doing it...

Here's an example of what happens when I get greedy, and try to make the plane do things I shouldn't when I'm slow.  There's a big difference between "coasting" through a slow speed segment, and trying to aggressively maneuver through a slow speed segment.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yqag4ygy2jz/Agent360 fun fight with stall_0001.ahf

I put the nose at a bad angle, and then tried to force the plane to maneuver for a shot (and then I tried to follow him as he passed under me, and that sealed the deal, in a bad way...  A few seconds later, you can see I've learned from that mistake, and am much less aggressive in a situation that easily could have gone the same way.  Patience is a virtue, right?  Right around 1 minute in, I'm basically setting up for a BRD, but alter it as the situation dictates about 1/2 way through it, and I realize I have an opportunity to get less defensive and more offensive.  I have no doubt that Agent would smack me silly if I made that mistake nowadays...

It's somewhat of a gamble to fly that way (getting slow), and I don't ever plan on that happening.  I'll always keep my speed up in my fights if I can.  On the other hand, all I ever fly is the hog, and I know the edges of it's envelope pretty well.  One aspect to notice in the film is the "up and down" aspect of my flying.  I'm NOT dropping flaps, leaving them out, and getting/staying slow.  I'm also not going to be diving to the deck.  But I want to time my "dodges" so that when I get slow and go nose-up, I'm doing it at an optimal time and angle to preserve my hide, but then I exit nose-down and get my speed back up quickly.  Ideally, I'll be nose-up while he's nose-down, and come through my maneuver nose-down and on his six, so that I can accomplish two things at the same time (build speed and shoot, or build speed and pressure him, etc).  I'm E-disadvantaged here, so if I'm going to lose E by maneuvering, I need the biggest return on my investment possible...  Even if the fight gets to be on the deck, I'm still going to use every bit of "up/down" that I can.  When that option is gone (if I'm still fighting), I'm in big trouble.

In this case I'm being pressured and need to do what's needed to mess up Ardy123's shot, survive his attack, and figure out a way to shoot him in the process.  Those are the first priorities.  In addition, I'm trying to get our fight headed further out into the water if I can, because that coastline was the border of a furball strip.  It'll make my SA an easier task if I can separate us from the possibility of others joining in as well.  Ardy lost here, but he's definitely a "handful" all by himself, and I don't want any other planes to join our fight.  

[Nemisis]

Often,  when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...

(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)

1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the  now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.

2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.

3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.


Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of  my 'e'?

Thanks

Make it nice and larg so its not like you rolling in place, and barrel roll isn't a definsive manuver that will accomplish a whole lot, except spoiling his aim. If your in a better diver, when you barrel roll keep pulling up on the stick when you upside down and turn it into a split S.

[RTHolmes]

... and barrel roll isn't a definsive manuver that will accomplish a whole lot, except spoiling his aim.

sorry but thats rubbish, done right it can completely reverse the situational advantage in your favour. from last night, I missed the d200 snapshot on the o/s cus it was late and I was tired but I was controlling the engagement from the moment the corsair decided to dive on me. shows that even a defensive maneuver can be done aggressively to turn the tables:

http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/47m_brd.ahf