Turning point of the War.

[Nemisis]

Well yes, but a city is horrible to armor. Why not just simply surround the city like russia did to the germans? Had they tried that and failed? I'm just saying, if I could choose between sending an army into a built up city, or sending one around, I'd send it around.

[USRanger]

The Germans would have had to fight the Red Army no matter where it tried to cross the Volga. However, Stalingrad was a major industrial center producing, among other things, T-34's. Stalingrad was also in the path of the German goal of capturing the Caspian oil fields. And the city was named Stalingrad.

From what I've read, Hitler was obsessed with Stalingrad purely because of its name.  He insisted it be taken or wiped off the face of the Earth.  Had the city been named differently, the war in the East may have gone much differently.  The goal would have probably stayed the oil fields, not the city.

[Nemisis]

OK. Thanks ranger.

[Angus]

It was by no means just the name. It was a key to the waterways that fed the north.
Just imagine how the war on the eastern front would have faired if Germany had it's own route through the med and straight to Sevastopol and up to the waterways. A planner's dream.An invasion that would have started early in May....

[Nemisis]

Stalingrad wasn't nessicary to cut of the north. Just getting across the river would have done that. The Germans should have surrounded stalingrad, and let it wither on the vine.

[321BAR]

From what I've read, Hitler was obsessed with Stalingrad purely because of its name.  He insisted it be taken or wiped off the face of the Earth.  Had the city been named differently, the war in the East may have gone much differently.  The goal would have probably stayed the oil fields, not the city.

yes he was but dont use this to take away the fact that it still was one of the major T34 production sites. and for the idea of surrounding stalingrad? wasnt it kind of in a very far off way Bastogne where roads met? and besides, the Germans did manage to occupy most of the city, they were beaten back when reinforcements stormed up from the river in a massive counterattack with the idea of "not one step backwards" implied by then. stalingrad was very necessary for the german advance but hitler was an idiot for keeping his army there to be surrounded instead of retreating and regrouping like the commanders wanted... a hundred thousand men were lost from that counter attack correct?

[DREDIOCK]

Sicily & Itallian campaigns. without with Normandy wouldnt have been possible

[Nemisis]

right BAR, hitler lost an entire army in stalingrad. But like I said, just getting over the river would have cut off supplys moving on it. I think the Germans occupyed 9/10ths at their limit of advance, but were stoped JUST short of the Volga.

[Angus]

Down to 300 yards from the river.
Holding the bank would have been enough. Untill it froze.

[Nemisis]

Then the russians could have sent thousands of soldiers across the ice, trying to take back the bank. But aside from the factories in the city, would Germany have done better to cross the Volga just north or south of Stalingrad?

[Angus]

The further south that the waterways get captured, the less is the period on which they are passable on Ice. Hence my point about the key to conquering Russia being a southern front from the Black sea, - invasion followed by an advance on the nothern front. Had I been Hitler, that's how I would have tried the initial plan. And he did, but the British were in the way, and even the Spanish. Then he did the biggest mistake of all, which was the "southern swing" instead of focusing on Moscow.
So perhaps the turning point of the war was when Hitler ordered Guderian to take his Panzer army on a few thousand miles trip before going off for Moscow.....

[Nemisis]

You have a good point there angus. But how were the british in the way? AND the Spanish?

[321BAR]

well for one the British occupied almost all of Arabia with the Free French, and second they had the strongest navy in the med and would have been too dangerous for a naval attack along with the fact they would have needed to take Istanbul or all of the low countries before even trying to move naval forces into the Sea. Along with that fact...the italians had the navy, and it wasnt big... When the imfamous Desert Fox landed in North Africa they had planned a daring move close to Malta which could have destroyed most of the Axis's Mediterranean Navy... feel free to correct me if im wrong but i got all this from sources

[Nemisis]

OK, but how were the spanish in the way? Or did he mean the french?

[321BAR]

i hope that he meant the free french hahahaha
  dance banana dance