Author Topic: graphics card info  (Read 1578 times)

Offline gyrene81

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 09:25:31 AM »
Thanks for pointing that out Baldy...but I didn't retract anything...from what I read of your assertions you were looking at the backward compatibility of PCI-E x16 2.0 with PCI-E x16...and I was looking at each stage of PCI-E as independent of each other as well as the short life span of each stage of the PCI-E tech versus the continuing market for AGP even after 4 years of being "outdated".

Using Newegg as an example, you will find a total of 44 AGP video cards available...for PCI-E x1 there are only 3...and PCI-E x16 there are 30.


For the record I didn't direct the "saving money" remarks specifically to you alone.




SPKmes, it's a tough choice man...deal with what you have now and hope you can come up with enough to buy a new system before you get to the point where the current system irritates you so much you quit playing...or toss what cash you know you can afford right now into that system to hopefully get you through another year or so.

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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 09:45:06 AM »
Using Newegg as an example, you will find a total of 44 AGP video cards available...for PCI-E x1 there are only 3...and PCI-E x16 there are 30.

The total number of PCIE x16 cards on newegg, whether of the 1.0 or 2.0 variety which are cross compatible, is 380!

Stating that there are more AGP cards available than PCIE x16 cards, which is exactly what you said, is simply wrong and omitting the vast majority of x16 cards to try to prove your point is ludicrous.

Why would you purposefully want to lead people astray?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:51:29 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 10:25:34 AM »
Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...

Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2009, 11:04:36 AM »
Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...

Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.

They actually work exactly the same using the exact same technology with the only difference being in the memory BUS bandwidth, which is twice as much in the 2.0 varieties.  When the varieties are mixed, they default to the lower bandwidth.

Lets take some real-world examples:

Person A has a motherboard that supports AGP 2x/4x.  This poor soul cannot buy a new video card and has to scrounge up a used one on ebay.

Person B has a motherboard that supports AGP 4x/8x.  They can still buy a realtively modern card new, but as soon as they upgrade their motherboard that card will be useless as it won't fit into the current PCIe x16 type slots.  They are also locked out of 90% of the available cards on the market based on the numbers of each type available on newegg.

Person C has a motherboard with a PCIe x16 slot.  They can choose to buy either a PCIe x16 or PCIe x16 2.0 video card.  If they thought they'd upgrade their motherboard at some point they'd probably buy the 2.0 version.  Even though they won't get the benefit of the extra memory bandwidth the card will work exactly the same as it's 1.0 counterpart and, when they upgrade their motherboard in the future they will "unlock" the additional performance of the card.  This person also has the option of buying a 1.0 version PCIe x16 card and may want to do so based on price considerations.  Even though they are buying the older memory interface, when and if they do upgrade to a motherboard that supports 2.0, they can move the card into that motherboard and it will perform exactly as it did in the older 1.0 slotted board.

Person D has a motherboard that supports PCIe x16 2.0.  They are most likely to want to purchase a PCIe x16 2.0 video card but, if there's a big enough price differential and they're on a budget, they also have the option of buying a 1.0 version card.  Even though it will only use half the abailable memory BUS it will work just the same as it would in a 1.0 slotted motherboard.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:07:08 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Fulmar

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2009, 06:06:27 PM »
In addition to what BaldEagl said, only the top of the line PCI-E cards are going to fully utlize PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth.  If you buy say an Nvidia 8400 GS, which is a low end $30 card.  It's rated to use 3.2Gb/sec on the PCI-Express bandwidth.  It's rated for PCI-E 2.0, but it comes no where near the PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth max of 25.6 Gb/sec.  PCI-E 1.0 at ~12.0Gb/sec is more than a enough for the 8400GS.

So in this case, the card even being rated for PCI-E 2.0 would perform the same under PCI-E 1.0 and a 2.0 motherboard.
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Offline ebfd11

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2009, 01:27:12 PM »
Hey Bald eagle this sis the card I have sli'd in my comp.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133246&cm_re=9800_gtx%2b-_-14-133-246-_-Product

and if you want to compare prices for different sites but with the same card check this out ... I used the 9800 gtx + as an example

http://www.nvidia.com/object/buy_now_results_ci.html?id=GF9800GTXPLUS

but it is tru get away from that agp it was good in its day but right now you want to go either pci or pci-e 2
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Offline 1701E

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2009, 01:49:04 PM »
Ooh ooh I'm person C! :P

Bought a GTX 260 when still using a PCI-E x16 1.0 (due to a defect? it was said to run at x8 though), because I knew I would get a new Motherboard soon (for the AM3 support).  Card works perfectly in both.  Too bad I have the worst bottleneck right now, but not for long! :D
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2009, 03:14:42 PM »
Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...

Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.

Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline gyrene81

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2009, 03:38:39 PM »
Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.
I do realize it Ripley...that was never in question.
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Offline Fulmar

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2009, 08:12:54 PM »
I do realize it Ripley...that was never in question.

Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...

Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.

Explain then please.
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Offline Spite

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2009, 04:33:48 AM »
Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.

As one who is interested in the new Core i5/i7 and concerned over the built in PCI Express bus on the chip that limits 2 installed graphics cards to 8 bit lanes, I was curious how much of an impact that really was on performance.  It turns out ... not very much at all as even the latest top of the line Radeon 5870 is barely starting to make full use of a 16 bit lane with only a 2% performance drop (resolution dependent) to an 8 bit lane.

Radeon HD 5870 PCI-Express Scaling Report

Offline gyrene81

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2009, 10:49:52 AM »
Explain what Fulmar? I was very specific in my statements. PCI-E x16 1.0/1.1 is not the same as PCI-E x16 2.0...otherwise there wouldn't be 2 separate specifications...that is in regards to Baldy's assertion on the total available number of PCI-E x16 (1.1 and 2.0) is higher than what is available in AGP. There may be a capacity for backward compatibility but they are not one and the same.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and Baldy's assertion that if a person has the finanical ability to afford a full system upgrade (mobo, cpu, gpu, memory, psu) then that is better in the long run than a short term fix.

On the other hand when it comes to AH, none of the video cards on this list (PCI-E x16):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16

Will outperform this video card (AGP 8x):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284


Nor would any lower end PCI-E x16 2.0 cards such as the GeForce 9500GT I just replaced.




But we have hijacked this thread enough...don't ya think?

jarhed  
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2009, 11:21:52 AM »
Explain what Fulmar? I was very specific in my statements. PCI-E x16 1.0/1.1 is not the same as PCI-E x16 2.0...otherwise there wouldn't be 2 separate specifications...that is in regards to Baldy's assertion on the total available number of PCI-E x16 (1.1 and 2.0) is higher than what is available in AGP. There may be a capacity for backward compatibility but they are not one and the same.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and Baldy's assertion that if a person has the finanical ability to afford a full system upgrade (mobo, cpu, gpu, memory, psu) then that is better in the long run than a short term fix.

On the other hand when it comes to AH, none of the video cards on this list (PCI-E x16):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16

Will outperform this video card (AGP 8x):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284


Nor would any lower end PCI-E x16 2.0 cards such as the GeForce 9500GT I just replaced.




But we have hijacked this thread enough...don't ya think?



I'm sorry I fail to see your point you compare 40 dollar cards to a 120 dollar card? Do you really think those are all the PCI-E cards available on newegg? The only separating factor between x16 and x16 2.0 cards is the design date, newer cards are built for the 2.0 bus. It does _not_ define the card in any way.

Even if you could get a high performance AGP card your CPU sockets will force you CPU limited anyway so there just isn't an upgrade path available.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:25:36 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2009, 11:38:26 AM »
I'm sorry I fail to see your point you compare 40 dollar cards to a 120 dollar card? Do you really think those are all the PCI-E cards available on newegg? The only separating factor between x16 and x16 2.0 cards is the design date, newer cards are built for the 2.0 bus. It does _not_ define the card in any way.
Must be a blinding paradigm. Try re-reading the entire thread from beginning to end to the point of comprehension and see if you can get a clearer picture.
jarhed  
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: graphics card info
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2009, 11:44:06 AM »
Must be a blinding paradigm. Try re-reading the entire thread from beginning to end to the point of comprehension and see if you can get a clearer picture.

The picture is that you make a huge deal about nothing, AGP is dead and PCI-E is the way to go for upgrades.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone