How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16

[thorsim]

  amen brotha

Oswald Boeleke and the Eight Rules of Air Combat

Basic tactics and rules established by Oswald Boeleke in 1916, however, have stood the test of time well. He gave new pilots eight rules of air combat to help them survive and win.

•Try to secure an advantage before you begin your attack. This advantage could be altitude, position, or surprise.
•Always carry through with an attack once you've started.
•Fire only at close range and when your opponent is properly in your sights.
•Always keep your eye on your opponent. Don't be deceived by ruses.Be prepared for your opponent to cut his speed to force you to overshoot.
•Always attack from behind your opponent.
•When attacked, turn into the attack; don't try to evade. This still holds true. Always be on the offensive.
•When over enemy lines, never forget your own line of retreat. When your fuel and/or weapons are low, start thinking about how you're going to get back to base.
•Attack in groups of four or six.

This is how you beat a Spit XVI in any plane. This applies mostly to the MA I would say. In a Co-E/ Co-alt situation dueling one v one, I would be of little help in giving advice for the F4U. I rugularly kill more Spit XVI's than most other aircraft in poorer turning planes. I do this by setting myself up with the advantage first and if I had accomplished this in an F4U I would dive and gather a little speed and as the Spit was trying to turn back into me (which they often do) I would visualize his flight path, pull low g to cut across it, unload and fire when the icon goes from 800 to 600. If you miss, blow through, at 1.5k use the F4U's great zoom in an immelman to gain alt and reverse back. The Spit has probably lost some E when he turned into you and now he is slower and you are above him....repeat (BnZ). Since the hog has few advantages you need to create them ahead of time. If he gets behind to, you are pretty much done as I believe that Spit XVI's are "magic" and do some amazing things sometimes.

If I were one on one in the DA, I would probably gain E and make all my passes long enough that I could safely extend to set up again and be very patient with low G manuvers when reversing my flight path for the next pass until I have spotted the opponent make a mistake giving me an advantage. As for turn fighting, it is not my forte' and I'm sure there are pilots here that can whip the pants off a XVI in a turn fight with a Hog. 

SEsaber, Screaming Eagles

[Anaxogoras]

Care to elaborate?

Didn't you ever see The Last Starfighter?

[Saxman]

Only in the 80s would they make break dancing become a combat maneuver.



Great movie, I keep hearing there's a sequel in the works.

[Saxman]

...a crossing shot with Hispanos during a scissors is liable to knock something off even the tough Hog.

I'd much rather take a crossing snapshot from the Spixteen's gun package into the wing of a Hog than I would a snapshot from a Browning 6-pack into the wing of a Spit.

[BnZs]

mass momentum and acceleration means more energy will be required(lost) changing the acceleration(turning) of a larger heavier object.  fancy flaps and fairie dust will not change that, no matter how bad the video gamers wish it would ...

at 75mph there is not a lot of energy left to be lost is there ...

Airplane performance is defined by the ratio of power and lift to weight and drag. Not by the absolute size of the craft.

Turn radius, though not turn rate performance, hinges mostly on how slowly the airplane can fly.

[BnZs]

I'd much rather take a crossing snapshot from the Spixteen's gun package into the wing of a Hog than I would a snapshot from a Browning 6-pack into the wing of a Spit.

Yes, a decent burst at convergence from 6x .50s can de-wing a spit. Of course, if your opponent is butter-churning instead of simply turning, as he likely will be, these hits will not be all in the same place... Still doesn't compare to the Hispano's ability to remover control surfaces and vertical stabs with single pings at any reasonable distance whatsoever, to say nothing of what it can do with a decent burst.

[shiv]

Oswald Boeleke and the Eight Rules of Air Combat

Basic tactics and rules established by Oswald Boeleke in 1916, however, have stood the test of time well. He gave new pilots eight rules of air combat to help them survive and win.

•Try to secure an advantage before you begin your attack. This advantage could be altitude, position, or surprise.
•Always carry through with an attack once you've started.
•Fire only at close range and when your opponent is properly in your sights.
•Always keep your eye on your opponent. Don't be deceived by ruses.Be prepared for your opponent to cut his speed to force you to overshoot.
•Always attack from behind your opponent.
•When attacked, turn into the attack; don't try to evade. This still holds true. Always be on the offensive.
•When over enemy lines, never forget your own line of retreat. When your fuel and/or weapons are low, start thinking about how you're going to get back to base.
•Attack in groups of four or six.

This is how you beat a Spit XVI in any plane. This applies mostly to the MA I would say. In a Co-E/ Co-alt situation dueling one v one, I would be of little help in giving advice for the F4U. I rugularly kill more Spit XVI's than most other aircraft in poorer turning planes. I do this by setting myself up with the advantage first and if I had accomplished this in an F4U I would dive and gather a little speed and as the Spit was trying to turn back into me (which they often do) I would visualize his flight path, pull low g to cut across it, unload and fire when the icon goes from 800 to 600. If you miss, blow through, at 1.5k use the F4U's great zoom in an immelman to gain alt and reverse back. The Spit has probably lost some E when he turned into you and now he is slower and you are above him....repeat (BnZ).

That's is one way of doing it.  I don't have the patience for it though.  If I come in with an advantage in a 1A I use the E to get in guns range in his rear hemisphere, then dump as much E as i need to stay there (which is easy for an F4U.)  This results in either a quick kill or the con reversing and maybe killing me instead. Which at the least may be an interesting fight.

Probably not the best advice, but it is fun.

[BrockS]

Yes, a decent burst at convergence from 6x .50s can de-wing a spit. Of course, if your opponent is butter-churning instead of simply turning, as he likely will be, these hits will not be all in the same place... Still doesn't compare to the Hispano's ability to remover control surfaces and vertical stabs with single pings at any reasonable distance whatsoever, to say nothing of what it can do with a decent burst.

This and many other arguments about the superiority of the SpitXVI are moot. It has more advantages, I think that everyone can agree on that. The bottom line is that to win, you fight your fight, not the opponents and you just don't give them the opportunity to get you. That is how you win any plane vs any plane. What "The Most Interesting Man in the World" says about career choices applies here; "find out what it is in life you don't do well, and then don't do that thing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNYHoI47fw0

SEsaber, Screaming Eagles

[BnZs]

Well, then we are back to the answer no one particularly likes. The F4U-1A's largest advantage over the Spixteen is that its fast enough that it doesn't usually HAVE to engage it if conditons are not advantageous. But that is shamefully unmanly cartoon airplane thinking, now ain't it?   

This and many other arguments about the superiority of the SpitXVI are moot. It has more advantages, I think that everyone can agree on that. The bottom line is that to win, you fight your fight, not the opponents and you just don't give them the opportunity to get you. That is how you win any plane vs any plane. What "The Most Interesting Man in the World" says about career choices applies here; "find out what it is in life you don't do well, and then don't do that thing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNYHoI47fw0

SEsaber, Screaming Eagles

[thorsim]

not sure how your statement negates mine ...

the maneuver fight should go to the spit barring any extreme pilot stupidity ...

however there is that pull harder and win mentality in the video games that would not translate to TRW.

t

Airplane performance is defined by the ratio of power and lift to weight and drag. Not by the absolute size of the craft.

Turn radius, though not turn rate performance, hinges mostly on how slowly the airplane can fly.

[thorsim]

not sure how your statement negates mine ...

the maneuver fight should go to the spit barring any extreme pilot stupidity ...

however there is that pull harder and win mentality in the video games that would not translate to TRW.

t

Airplane performance is defined by the ratio of power and lift to weight and drag. Not by the absolute size of the craft.

Turn radius, though not turn rate performance, hinges mostly on how slowly the airplane can fly.

[BrockS]

That's is one way of doing it.  I don't have the patience for it though.  If I come in with an advantage in a 1A I use the E to get in guns range in his rear hemisphere, then dump as much E as i need to stay there (which is easy for an F4U.)  This results in either a quick kill or the con reversing and maybe killing me instead. Which at the least may be an interesting fight.

Probably not the best advice, but it is fun.

Yes, you are correct, when 1v1 and don't have to worry about other cons, I would do the same, but not to the point of losing the advantage. I would leave enough wiggle room and have a plan of egress if I don't get the kill. I have two rules for my style of flying if there are multiple enemies though;1) don't drop flaps ,anticipate enemies flight path and cross it. If you drop 2 notches, get the kill most likely you die shortly after) and 2)If I don't get the kill within 5 seconds of getting on an enemies six, I disengage as I have a habit of getting target fixation. Keep in mind, this is vs. multiple bandits.

 Like you said though in a 1v1 the rules relax a little since I can keep my total situational awareness on my fight and not spend most of it looking backwards.

SEsaber

[Anodizer]

I loved the Battle Stations episode on the F4U when the Marine pilot stated that the F4U was the first airplane to have one horsepower per pound... new one on me!  

forget it...

[BrockS]

That's is one way of doing it.  I don't have the patience for it though.  If I come in with an advantage in a 1A I use the E to get in guns range in his rear hemisphere, then dump as much E as i need to stay there (which is easy for an F4U.)  This results in either a quick kill or the con reversing and maybe killing me instead. Which at the least may be an interesting fight.

Probably not the best advice, but it is fun.

Yes, you are correct, when 1v1 and don't have to worry about other cons, I would do the same, but not to the point of losing the advantage. I would leave enough wiggle room and have a plan of egress if I don't get the kill. I have two rules for my style of flying if there are multiple enemies though;1) don't drop flaps ,anticipate enemies flight path and cross it. If you drop 2 notches, get the kill most likely you die shortly after) and 2)If I don't get the kill within 5 seconds of getting on an enemies six, I disengage as I have a habit of getting target fixation. Keep in mind, this is vs. multiple bandits.

 Like you said though in a 1v1 the rules relax a little since I can keep my total situational awareness on my fight and not spend most of it looking backwards.

SEsaber

[BnZs]

not sure how your statement negates mine ...

"a big plane changing direction hard bleeds a lot of energy a lot more than a significantly smaller plane for the same change of direction ..."

Is the part that is misleading without reference to the wingloading, powerloading, and lift/drag of the A/C in question. You have a habit of implying that certain aircraft (P-38, Corsair, whatever) should not maneuver well as they do in AH because of absolute weight, which is no factor in and of itself, too late to retract it.