Author Topic: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)  (Read 30119 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 12:28:34 PM »
why don't you prove it ...

outside of the video game i mean ...

after all i've been waiting on one real world account for this general argument for what 3 or 4 tours now?

posted threads on other BBS where you guys get squashed with these "arguments" ...

posted videos of pilots who have flown multiple types that completely contradict your "facts" ...

i just want to see one or two pilots of these planes saying that the turn favors the hog or
even that the hog would be close vs. a 109.

there is a reason things seem counterintuitive, usually they are highly unlikely ...

like a hog out turning a 109 ...

in the real world    


  

You have not posted one thing that shows how the flight model in game is incorrect.  You have also dismissed any data that has been presented showing you're incorrect in your claims.  Others, myself included, have posted real world accounts that support what we've said, only to have you dismiss them because they don't mesh with your reality.


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Offline WMLute

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 12:29:04 PM »
hey i never said they were that bad ...

just still waiting for you guys to find either a real world current (in this case) f4u or 109 pilot to offer an opinion that is not completely the opposite of the situation in the game and or you paper excuses for the situation in the game ...

4 months now, still waiting ...

Most all of the AH FM's come very close to "matching up" with most real world opinions on how the planes should fly.

Just because YOU can't make 'em fly that way........
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 12:35:42 PM »
hey i never said they were that bad ...

just still waiting for you guys to find either a real world current (in this case) f4u or 109 pilot to offer an opinion that is not completely the opposite of the situation in the game and or you paper excuses for the situation in the game ...

4 months now, still waiting ...

Its funny how you like to go by a plane's "rep" when it suits your purpose...I.E, the Corsair is obviously a "bad turner"...even though that "rep" comes from fighting against freakin' Zeros, which of course skews the situation...but ignore the "rep" when it does not...I.E. the fact that if pilots reports are to be believed, P-51s succeeded in down and dirty turn-fights against 109s many, many times under actual combat conditions.

So nothing can be "known" in your opinion 'till two guys fire up a 109 and F4U and try flying a few Luftberries in them?  :rofl  Really Thorsim, would you accept a well-reasoned, scientific argument for *NOT* sticking your johnson in a sausage grinder, or would you just have to try the experiment? I begin to suspect the latter.

Oh, BTW, F4U vs. Yak. F4U wins...with ordnance on the racks.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&ved=0CBYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.navy.mil%2Fa-korea%2Fcaug51-26.pdf&rct=j&q=F4U+vs.+Yak&ei=EuwfS4PyIMyIkAXT7vHnCg&usg=AFQjCNGQkcn6hPgsQB0t9m_I0YCqIZf_XQ
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:38:48 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 12:36:12 PM »
You have not posted one thing that shows how the flight model in game is incorrect.  You have also dismissed any data that has been presented showing you're incorrect in your claims.  Others, myself included, have posted real world accounts that support what we've said, only to have you dismiss them because they don't mesh with your reality.


ack-ack

Most all of the AH FM's come very close to "matching up" with most real world opinions on how the planes should fly.

Just because YOU can't make 'em fly that way........

musta missed those remind me ...

just one current pilot expert opinion that says a spit or 109 is disadvantaged in a turn fight vs an f4u or pony or 38 or jugg or hellcat ...

just one ...

EDIT   add the yak just for B and Z




« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:38:18 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
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Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2009, 12:42:05 PM »
musta missed those remind me ...

just one current pilot expert opinion that says a spit or 109 is disadvantaged in a turn fight vs an f4u or pony or 38 or jugg or hellcat ...


So reports from wartime pilots actually flying in combat OR test flights do not count?  :rofl

The fundamental problem with with two guys jerking around in restorations is that the weights compared to actual combat conditions may be off, the altitudes may be off, and I will guarantee you they are not pushing the aircraft in the same way combat pilots did.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2009, 12:47:10 PM »
So reports from wartime pilots actually flying in combat OR test flights do not count?  :rofl

The fundamental problem with with two guys jerking around in restorations is that the weights compared to actual combat conditions are unknown, the altitudes may be off, and I will guarantee you they are not pushing the aircraft in the same way combat pilots did.

NOPE they can only tell 1/2 of one side ...

i.e. the winners point of view from one aircraft type, because the dead guys can't dispute their claims about aircraft superiority ...

as far as maneuverability math guys go the usual suspects here like to isolate a single issue and claim that it determines the maneuverability of an aircraft when we all know it is a combination of several factors that can only really be sorted out in real world testing ...



 


« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:50:33 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2009, 12:53:05 PM »
NOPE they can only tell 1/2 of one side ...

i.e. the winners point of view from one aircraft type, because the dead guys can't dispute their claims about aircraft superiority ...





So the Information in this Book from Japan is "wrong"?   95% of it is translated into English.



I'm pretty confident the information is the one of the most comprehensive on the Ki-61.   Just give it up with your "statements and failure to back them up with anything substantiated".  
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2009, 12:54:29 PM »
Someone use smaller words... thor can't seem to come through with the factual information to supply HiTech with.... I'm thinking he just is not comprehending. Obviously he has this info before posting. Someone see if they can get him to push it through to the powers that be.
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2009, 12:55:30 PM »
Someone use smaller words... thor can't seem to come through with the factual information to supply HiTech with.... I'm thinking he just is not comprehending. Obviously he has this info before posting. Someone see if they can get him to push it through to the powers that be.

“They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.” Terry Pratchett
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:57:53 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »
just 1 ...

4 months and counting ...

WHAT CAN'T YOU GUYS FIND A SOURCE TOP BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS ? ? ?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:11:06 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »
just 1 ...

4 months and counting ...

WHAT CAN'T YOU GUYS FIND A SOURCE TOP BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS ? ? ?

Contact HiTech he has the sources and info.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 01:13:39 PM »
just 1 ...

4 months and counting ...

WHAT CAN'T YOU GUYS FIND A SOURCE TOP BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS ? ? ?

What would you like to know about the Ki-61 that you "think" is currently incorrect?   Besides the Turn Data, that is incorrect.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 01:19:38 PM »
Contact HiTech he has the sources and info.

having a discussion with you guys not hitech ...

What would you like to know about the Ki-61 that you "think" is currently incorrect?   Besides the Turn Data, that is incorrect.

ki-61 ? ? ?

WTF? where did i ever mention the ki61? ever ? ? ?
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »
as far as maneuverability math guys go the usual suspects here like to isolate a single issue and claim that it determines the maneuverability of an aircraft

These are not claims. These are facts. You can look up the formulas for turn rate and turn radius yourself, if you care to. The fact that you do not understand the physics involved does not invalidate it, anymore than heavy objects fall faster just because most people believe they do.

when we all know it is a combination of several factors that can only really be sorted out in real world testing ...


Actual side by side testing is mostly unavailable for most aircraft in-game, and when available, frequently contradictory.


Further more, if you actually believe there are "way more factors" in maneuverability than are known to physics, then you can't apply ANY test across the board in a blanket way. Since you apparently believe that happy thoughts or whatever $#Q%@^%@$% it is this week can contravene the physics of lift, thrust, and drag, there is no way one could expect the results for a G-14 with an Mg 151 onboard to be applicable to the same G-14 with a Mk. 108 onboard. No sir, you can't just figure for the extra weight and go from there...'cause you don't believe in physics. You have to get out your tape measure and check the turn radius of a real G-14 with one, then re-arm and try it again...'cause you got to account for all the mysterious and magical factors, don't ya know. And of course, this will only be Thorsim's turn radius for the G-14 in game, surely another pilot's size and weight would throw all kinds of un-calculable factors into it.

Hmmm...physical laws are mutable nothing can be known except by word of the "learned authorities"? Just who is an "authority" is a matter of debate of course...of course, if you're Thorsim its whoever supports your original idea most neatly...My God, we have a valuable example of the Medieval mindset in our midst that I have never appreciated up until now.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:27:30 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 01:23:26 PM »
ki-61 ? ? ?

WTF? where did i ever mention the ki61? ever ? ? ?


You lose.
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