Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[thorsim]

You lose.

post it

[thorsim]

you calling skip holm a liar?

These are not claims. These are facts. You can look up the formulas for turn rate and turn radius yourself, if you care to. The fact that you do not understand the physics involved does not invalidate it, anymore than heavy objects fall faster just because most people believe they do.

Actual side by side testing is mostly unavailable for most aircraft in-game, and when available, frequently contradictory.
(Image removed from quote.)

Further more, if you actually believe there are "way more factors" in maneuverability than are known to physics, then you can't apply ANY test across the board in a blanket way. Since you apparently believe that happy thoughts or whatever $#Q%@^%@$% it is this week can contravene the physics of lift, thrust, and drag, there is no way one could expect the results for a G-14 with an Mg 151 onboard to be applicable to the same G-14 with a Mk. 108 onboard. No sir, you can't just figure for the extra weight and go from there...'cause you don't believe in physics. You have to get out your tape measure and check the turn radius of a real G-14 with one, then re-arm and try it again...'cause you got to account for all the mysterious and magical factors, don't ya know. And of course, this will only be Thorsim's turn radius for the G-14 in game, surely another pilot's size and weight would throw all kinds of un-calculable factors into it.

Hmmm...physical laws are mutable nothing can be known except by word of the "learned authorities"? Just who is an "authority" is a matter of debate of course...of course, if you're Thorsim its whoever supports your original idea most neatly...My God, we have a valuable example of the Medieval mindset in our midst that I have never appreciated up until now.

[BnZs]

you calling skip holm a liar?

You calling Bud Anderson a liar?

See how this works?

Though case in point, what you have been doing on this forum for weeks is EXACTLY like calling the whole lot of scientists who have worked out the principles of aerodynamics over the years liars, or at least woefully misguided. I'd be surprised if you travel on commercial airlines, since according to you the people who designed the things have no idea what makes an airplane fly.

[thorsim]

just face it it has been 4 months of these types of discussions and if you experts could find one current real world opinion to back up your claims you would have posted it by now ...

there is not one modern pilot expert with a real world reputation willing to get all fan boy about any of these planes in public, on the record, that supports the statements i have taken issue with here ...

when you filter out the cheerleading, morale driven, export surplus plane sales slanted "tests", of woefully overburdened, poorly maintained, derelict or crash recovered aircraft, and check with a modern unbiased source there is not one statement or test out there that supports things and opinions here ...

if there were it would be posted ...

wouldn't it ...

[dedalos]

Corsairs have light effective lift loadings. The things are known to have out-turned Yaks in combat, so what is ridiculous about them out-turning 109s? Deal with it.

Although in point of fact the 109s will sustain a superior rate of turn. Failure to know the implications of rate vrs. radius, sustained vs. instantaneous, and nose-to-tail vs. nose-to-nose are how the Corsairs have gained a reputation for being able to out-turn "everything".

Yes, because only the guys flying the F4U understand these things lol.  Had you been around in AH1?  F4Us and 109s used to be bricks until the fix that made every plane a spitfire.

[Raptor]

just face it it has been 4 months of these types of discussions and if you experts could find one current real world opinion to back up your claims you would have posted it by now ...

[thorsim]

no i would call him a considerably less qualified source on the 109 and therefore less able to make an informed comparison on the two airframes.  i would also have reason to think he had a soft spot for the p-51, as he should.

but certainly a less than neutral contributor to the discussion.

i am not calling any scientists liars i just think somethings do not translate so neatly to the real world ...
that is why even now we have TEST PILOTS and not just engineers scientists and computers ...

  

You calling Bud Anderson a liar?

See how this works?

Though case in point, what you have been doing on this forum for weeks is EXACTLY like calling the whole lot of scientists who have worked out the principles of aerodynamics over the years liars, or at least woefully misguided. I'd be surprised if you travel on commercial airlines, since according to you the people who designed the things have no idea what makes an airplane fly.

[ink]

By circumstance I had some fun fights with a good hog driver over the weekend. All in all the spitXVI vs hog is a fun matchup with the hog having the initial advantage (IMO) and the spitty gaining parity as the fight goes on. The spits climb and acceleration eat into the hogs E advantage over time. In the end I think gunnery makes the difference between good pilots. Most fights I lost either because I missed a shot or he hit what I considered to be a low % one...I'd say the reverse was also true. I don't ever fear another plane, its the guy flying it that bothers me....

absolutely without a doubt the truest response thus far


 

[Saxman]

always seems to happen when the status quo is questioned in cartoon land huh ...

Yeah, especially when QUESTIONING THE STATUS QUO IS WHAT'S OFF TOPIC.

You want to question the status quote start a new frelling thread and don't cut in to someone else's when they're looking for recommendations on how to fight so-and-so opponent, or insight on what plane has what advantage over another aircraft within the game. It's NOT the place to bring out your same tired and ground into the dirt arguments.

[mtnman]

Greetings  

The purpose of this query is specific to individual planes fighting AGAINST the F4U-1A, not talking about furballs, just how each plane listed below fares against the hog, man to man, individually:

   F4U vs P38: found this to be a very iffy situation, the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.

   F4U vs P40?
   F4U vs spit9 or spit16?
   F4U vs BF109s?
   F4U vs FW 190D?
   F4U vs Ki84
   F4U vs P51

Corsair experts are invited to add their opinions, experiences & skills,
your treatises PLUS FILMS are requested, in fact, encouraged.  Thx .

In the end, it really comes down to the pilot vs pilot equation.  I basically fly the F4U's on any day that ends in "y", and have beaten all of those planes, and been beaten by all those planes.

The planes on that list that threaten me the most (with a skilled pilot) are the KI-84, P51, 190D9, and 109 (G or K).  The Spit 16 can be a handful too.  I have to screw up to be worried about the Spit9 or P40.

In the game I'm seldom worried about any of those, until I run into a pilot who knows how to use his planes advantages over mine.  I kill 109's almost every time I run into them, for example.  But then again, if the 109 flies to his advantages, all I can do is dodge his shots and hope he screws up.  Same for the P51...  

I just took a 109G pilot into the DA a week or so ago, whom I've had the fortune to kill many times in the MA.  I taught him how to kill me in his 109G vs my F4U-1A, with a tactic I can't do much to defeat.  All he needs to do is use his speed, climb, and acceleration advantages, coupled with rolling in the vertical.  He also needs to avoid stepping into the traps I'll lay for him.  Overall, it was pretty simple.  He caught on quick (20 minutes?) and he'll now be a major threat to me in the MA.  He'll still be in the same plane; but where he wasn't a huge threat before, now he probably will be...

[thorsim]

Yeah, especially when QUESTIONING THE STATUS QUO IS WHAT'S OFF TOPIC.

You want to question the status quote start a new frelling thread and don't cut in to someone else's when they're looking for recommendations on how to fight so-and-so opponent, or insight on what plane has what advantage over another aircraft within the game. It's NOT the place to bring out your same tired and ground into the dirt arguments.

i wasn't the one to take this thread off topic ...

somebody stated that in the game the advantage between the hog and the 109 in a turn-fight should go to the hog and the "E" fight should go to the 109s, i questioned that ...

BnZ then came in with his "numbers" trying to make the case for TRW where i pointed out that as others have noted this is not the TRW  ...

BnZ brought this discussion out of the game context not me ...

then the other usual suspects started with their usual arguments.

pay attention please ...

[BnZs]

Yes, because only the guys flying the F4U understand these things lol.  Had you been around in AH1?  F4Us and 109s used to be bricks until the fix that made every plane a spitfire.

If a plane that stalls at 75mph IAS could *not* sustain a relatively tiny turn radius, then the modeling was wrong. Simple as that

[Ardy123]

I just took a 109G pilot into the DA a week or so ago, whom I've had the fortune to kill many times in the MA.  I taught him how to kill me in his 109G vs my F4U-1A, with a tactic I can't do much to defeat.  All he needs to do is use his speed, climb, and acceleration advantages, coupled with rolling in the vertical.  He also needs to avoid stepping into the traps I'll lay for him.  Overall, it was pretty simple.  He caught on quick (20 minutes?) and he'll now be a major threat to me in the MA.  He'll still be in the same plane; but where he wasn't a huge threat before, now he probably will be...

It wasn't me, I swear.


Thanks mtnman for showing me, it was very helpful.


and yes, in most cases, a late war 109 can beat a f4u-1a, all it has to do is get on top and force the f4u down. late war 109s have a climb rate that everything but the 4 hog could only dream of.

[BnZs]

I pointed out the fact that an airplane which stalls at 75mph IAS will have a competitive turn *radius* vrs. many other WWII a/c types. This is not debatable, turn radius correlating directly with 1g stall speed. Therefore the F4U's turning performance in game is perfectly consistent with real-world aerodynamics.

I also pointed out that every variant of 109 will sustain a better *rate* of turn than the F4U-1s in-game, which you ignore, apparently being innocent of the difference between rate and radius of turn and the implications for ACM therein. (Hint, it is not in fact true that "the turning fight goes to the F4U" in every case) Which along with an ignorance of basic aerodynamics leads whiners into believing the the F4U is a UFO Hitech put in the game to torment them.

i wasn't the one to take this thread off topic ...

somebody stated that in the game the advantage between the hog and the 109 in a turn-fight should go to the hog and the "E" fight should go to the 109s, i questioned that ...

BnZ then came in with his "numbers" trying to make the case for TRW where i pointed out that as others have noted this is not the TRW  ...

BnZ brought this discussion out of the game context not me ...

then the other usual suspects started with their usual arguments.

pay attention please ...

[thorsim]

I pointed out the fact that an airplane which stalls at 75mph IAS will have a competitive turn *radius* vrs. many other WWII a/c types. This is not debatable, turn radius correlating directly with 1g stall speed. Therefore the F4U's turning performance in game is perfectly consistent with real-world aerodynamics.

I also pointed out that every variant of 109 will sustain a better *rate* of turn than the F4U-1s in-game, which you ignore, apparently being innocent of the difference between rate and radius of turn and the implications for ACM therein. (Hint, it is not in fact true that "the turning fight goes to the F4U" in every case) Which along with an ignorance of basic aerodynamics leads whiners into believing the the F4U is a UFO Hitech put in the game to torment them.

BnZs this has nothing to do with the quote of mine you quoted ...

per the OP's question i would B and Z the 109s with the hog as speed and speed retention are usually in the hogs favor and i think a 109-f4 would be more of a problem turning than a k4/g14 would be booming and zooming ...

to the OP if you are caught E- i would extend as preferable to fighting, conversely if i were E+ i would play the energy game and avoid the temptation to turn as i think that is where your advantage should be most all of the time vs. the 109s when in the f4us ...

IMHO

+S+

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