HO shots

[Koendog]

I've gotten to the point where I can defend myself enough to get past the initial merge (maybe into a scissors or something), but now I seem to be dying in HO shots almost ever sortie. Am I just not doing something right? Any help as to why I'm falling prey to this tactic is greatly appreciated.

Koen

[maddafinga]

Give yourself more separation going into the merge.  That will help an awful lot.

[Qrsu]

Think offsets. Vertical and horizontal. IE - set up to the left of your opponent and come in slightly beneath him on the merge.

[WMLute]

Give your opponent what looks like an easy shot and when they are just about to pull the trigger don't be there.

(i'm too tired to expound... maybe 2morrow or someone else can help me here)

[Ghosth]

All 3 of the above posters are correct.

Separation helps, the easiest one to learn is to dive below their nose.
Ever try to hit someone going down below your nose? They keep disappearing, plus you run the very real risk of redout.

Then at the point where they can not get guns on you, reverse, take it up into an immelman. You'll come out with an advantage because they are holding steady, trying to get a shot. While you have already cut angles off putting you in a better position.

You can do the same thing with a spiral or a corkscrew, but its harder to get the timing right.
The advantage is that it offsets you both sideways and vertically while making you a hard target.

Drop into the TA and find someone to do merges with. 2-3k nose to nose learn to duck his shot while setting up for your next move.

[Belial]

Some people are really good at hiding that their going to HO, gotta remember they can kick their rudder in certain situations.

[SPKmes]

Somebody with greater knowledge than me will surely be along and able to decipher and better get what I am trying to say across shortly       


Not sure if you are asking this from beyond the first merge or not......If it is and you get into a rolling scissors, straight out angles turn fight or the like you really need to watch what the con is upto.....how hard is he/she pulling to get a guns solution...many other things to look for but for this case you are watching for if the con is desperate for the kill or not....taking this into consideration you then need to follow as has been posted earlier....each time there is a head on pass about to happen dip the nose pull a little harder what ever you need to make the cons ability to get their nose on you a little bit harder (if you are blacking out generally so are they) this way you are aware of what your intention is and you have an Idea of what theirs is and you can then try to win angles as they are intent on finishing quickly and will jeopardize their positioning to get the shot in most cases.  I find that some of the better guys will hold of on the frontal high deflection shots for a few merges but will start pukering when it goes to many turns with no noticeable advantage being made....so you then need to start expecting it, still never nice to have it happen but sometimes angles just aren't being gained and the fight then needs to change in it's tact. This is also where throttle, flap and rudder control really helps to get a tighter turn a quick bit of torque or what ever... dependent on the situation at hand to get around, under, above...  I'm not sure how long you have been playing    but getting to the TA and having some guidance from the guys there is invaluable..... just being able to learn 1 defensive/offensive maneuver can gain you amazing results in the MA...it won't work forever but from there that 1 maneuver can be and will need to be adapted for the many situations you come across......especially if you have the ability to live longer in a fight...the chances of more cons joining are increased. Also from my very first 6-12 mths Spatula hounded me to stick to one plane for a few tours...this helped immensely. (when I finally listened)

[Koendog]

Somebody with greater knowledge than me will surely be along and able to decipher and better get what I am trying to say across shortly       


Not sure if you are asking this from beyond the first merge or not......If it is and you get into a rolling scissors, straight out angles turn fight or the like you really need to watch what the con is upto.....how hard is he/she pulling to get a guns solution...many other things to look for but for this case you are watching for if the con is desperate for the kill or not....taking this into consideration you then need to follow as has been posted earlier....each time there is a head on pass about to happen dip the nose pull a little harder what ever you need to make the cons ability to get their nose on you a little bit harder (if you are blacking out generally so are they) this way you are aware of what your intention is and you have an Idea of what theirs is and you can then try to win angles as they are intent on finishing quickly and will jeopardize their positioning to get the shot in most cases.  I find that some of the better guys will hold of on the frontal high deflection shots for a few merges but will start pukering when it goes to many turns with no noticeable advantage being made....so you then need to start expecting it, still never nice to have it happen but sometimes angles just aren't being gained and the fight then needs to change in it's tact. This is also where throttle, flap and rudder control really helps to get a tighter turn a quick bit of torque or what ever... dependent on the situation at hand to get around, under, above...  I'm not sure how long you have been playing    but getting to the TA and having some guidance from the guys there is invaluable..... just being able to learn 1 defensive/offensive maneuver can gain you amazing results in the MA...it won't work forever but from there that 1 maneuver can be and will need to be adapted for the many situations you come across......especially if you have the ability to live longer in a fight...the chances of more cons joining are increased. Also from my very first 6-12 mths Spatula hounded me to stick to one plane for a few tours...this helped immensely. (when I finally listened)

I usually end up in a HO situation after getting into a scissors or after a turn or two in an angles fight. For example...coming over the top w/the con low in the rolling scissors Ill pull back trying to get inside his turn radius. He'll follow suit and we'll end up going head on. I think I just need to try and avoid the situation all together by orienting my lift vector perpendicular (or somewhere close to) the cons in order to create some horizontal( or vertical depending) separation. This sound reasonable?, or just sound like I've had a three too many... +  = 

[grizz441]

I usually end up in a HO situation after getting into a scissors or after a turn or two in an angles fight. For example...coming over the top w/the con low in the rolling scissors Ill pull back trying to get inside his turn radius. He'll follow suit and we'll end up going head on. I think I just need to try and avoid the situation all together by orienting my lift vector perpendicular (or somewhere close to) the cons in order to create some horizontal( or vertical depending) separation. This sound reasonable?, or just sound like I've had a three too many... +   =  

You have to realize sooner that it's going to be a HO.  Say you're coming over the top at the guy who is going to be coming nose up at you.  Your problem is you are looking for gun solution in a situation where the only gun solution you are going to get is a head on.  By the time you realize this, it's too late to safely avoid the HO.  You have to realize this early.  Once you begin to see the HO angles sooner, you want to come down off to the side (maybe offset 90 deg or so), and most likely go nose up again as your opponent comes up at you, and then is forced to bleed more E to turn 90 deg or so to get guns on you.  You will usually rope him out 10 seconds later and come down for guns in a very favorable position.

[mtnman]

I usually end up in a HO situation after getting into a scissors or after a turn or two in an angles fight. For example...coming over the top w/the con low in the rolling scissors Ill pull back trying to get inside his turn radius. He'll follow suit and we'll end up going head on. I think I just need to try and avoid the situation all together by orienting my lift vector perpendicular (or somewhere close to) the cons in order to create some horizontal( or vertical depending) separation. This sound reasonable?, or just sound like I've had a three too many... +  = 

A way to avoid this is not to try to get inside his radius, or at least as much.  Just use a bit of patience, and hold more lag.  This will help him push through the scissors in front of you.  If he pulls to get inside, and tries to line up a shot, this just makes it even easier for you.  You'll end up pretty solidly behind him.

It's basically deciding not to try hard for an iffy shot, but hold off a bit for a better shot that will materialize a few seconds later.

[mtnman]

Some people are really good at hiding that their going to HO, gotta remember they can kick their rudder in certain situations.

Why would they hide it?  They're paying a subscription for a game based on shooting other players down.  Why would they not shoot, if you give them an opportunity?

Just assume that if you give your opponent an opportunity to shoot at you, he'll take it.  After all, his intention is to send you to the tower. 

"Knowing" that he'll shoot, just do your best to avoid giving him opportunities- or at least good ones.  Sometimes, even allowing him what looks like a good opportunity is a great way to make him predictable, and set up a great opportunity for yourself.

[Koendog]

A way to avoid this is not to try to get inside his radius, or at least as much.  Just use a bit of patience, and hold more lag.  This will help him push through the scissors in front of you.  If he pulls to get inside, and tries to line up a shot, this just makes it even easier for you.  You'll end up pretty solidly behind him.

It's basically deciding not to try hard for an iffy shot, but hold off a bit for a better shot that will materialize a few seconds later.

I guess Im having some trouble visualizing this (not hard to do considering we're trying to describe 3-D space in writing)...if I hold more lag (ie not try and pull inside his radius) in the scissors, wont the con end up on my 6?

[mtnman]

I guess Im having some trouble visualizing this (not hard to do considering we're trying to describe 3-D space in writing)...if I hold more lag (ie not try and pull inside his radius) in the scissors, wont the con end up on my 6?

Well, no. 

This is a bit of a hijack, moving from HO shots to scissors, but since you're the OP I suppose it's ok.

A- You'll never initiate a scissors unless the con is already on your six. (The point of the scissors is to take an opponent from your 6 and put him on your 12).  If you're the aggressor, and your opponent begins to scissor, you probably have other, better, options than to scissor with him (A high yo-yo maybe, or a barrel roll behind him, which is not a scissors).  If you're the aggressor and you enter a scissors with your opponent, you're already somewhat at a disadvantage for that tactic, even though you may initially have an angles and energy advantage.

B- In a scissors, you're looking to fly a longer path, but make less forward progress than your opponent.  You do this by trying to "fall behind" him.  Flying more pronounced barrel rolls in the rolling scissors, and reversing quickly/sharply enough in a flat scissors to get/keep your opponent out of plane.  Pulling for a shot requires lead.  This is aiming for/flying to a spot in front of your opponent.  If you do this in a scissors you'll end up in front of your opponent.  You'll end up doing a less-pronounced scissors, and make more forward progress than him.  That's exactly the opposite of what you want to do.

If you "race" to get the shot, or pull lead to get that shot, you'd better make it count.  Because you'll be getting shot at yourself very quickly if you don't...

Check out the scissors info here- http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/

[Ardy123]

I've gotten to the point where I can defend myself enough to get past the initial merge (maybe into a scissors or something), but now I seem to be dying in HO shots almost ever sortie. Am I just not doing something right? Any help as to why I'm falling prey to this tactic is greatly appreciated.

Koen

you can almost guess who is going to ho sometimes based on the plane type. Now, there are always exceptions but if a typhoon comes blazing in with its nose pointing at your nose, yes, he prob will ho. The main ho planes I see in the MA are.


1)typhoons
2)190s (mainly d9s)
3) p51s
4) me 262s
5) me 110s

[grizz441]

you can almost guess who is going to ho sometimes based on the plane type. Now, there are always exceptions but if a typhoon comes blazing in with its nose pointing at your nose, yes, he prob will ho. The main ho planes I see in the MA are.

4) me 262s

Nononononono Ardy... Always point your nose at the 262 to HO and oblige him if he wants it.  No sane jet pilot will ever HO a HO'er.