HO shots

[Lusche]

 No sane jet pilot will ever HO a HO'er.  

I did in my first 262 flight 46 tours ago. I was just thinking about my awesome firepower advantage over that puny 190D-9. I wasn't considering that all my firepower is irrelevant if I miss and he doesn't.

Well, I missed, and he (SirLoin) did not...

[HighGTrn]

I agree with the Typhie, any 190 (not just the D9) and 110.  Anyone who deliberately tries to take a HO in a pony is asking for it.  With its 6 M2s, convergence and that inline engine, its not a real good HOin machine.

Here are some other HOers I see in the MA.

* the George
* IL2
* A20s
* and the dreaded P38 with tracers off (just joking on this one). Although I have to admit to doing this before (usually agains Tempys and Jets).

you can almost guess who is going to ho sometimes based on the plane type. Now, there are always exceptions but if a typhoon comes blazing in with its nose pointing at your nose, yes, he prob will ho. The main ho planes I see in the MA are.


1)typhoons
2)190s (mainly d9s)
3) p51s
4) me 262s
5) me 110s

[PFactorDave]

I agree with the Typhie, any 190 (not just the D9) and 110.  Anyone who deliberately tries to take a HO in a pony is asking for it.  With its 6 M2s, convergence and that inline engine, its not a real good HOin machine.

Here are some other HOers I see in the MA.

* the George
* IL2
* A20s
* and the dreaded P38 with tracers off (just joking on this one). Although I have to admit to doing this before (usually agains Tempys and Jets).

I'd like to add...

* HOicaine 2Cs (Hurricaines)
* N1Ks
* Mossie (it is my opinion that you should never be in front of a Mossie's guns, ever)

[mtnman]

What if we changed paces, and listed the planes that never HO in the MA.  How many go on that list?

If you just assume everyone will do it, and set up the fight accordingly, you'll be amazed at how easy they are to avoid, and how easy it is to capitalize on someone who tries to HO...

Heck, I actually prefer for my opponents to go for the HO.  It makes them predictable.  Predictable makes them dead.

[Koendog]

Well, no. 

This is a bit of a hijack, moving from HO shots to scissors, but since you're the OP I suppose it's ok.

A- You'll never initiate a scissors unless the con is already on your six. (The point of the scissors is to take an opponent from your 6 and put him on your 12).  If you're the aggressor, and your opponent begins to scissor, you probably have other, better, options than to scissor with him (A high yo-yo maybe, or a barrel roll behind him, which is not a scissors).  If you're the aggressor and you enter a scissors with your opponent, you're already somewhat at a disadvantage for that tactic, even though you may initially have an angles and energy advantage.

B- In a scissors, you're looking to fly a longer path, but make less forward progress than your opponent.  You do this by trying to "fall behind" him.  Flying more pronounced barrel rolls in the rolling scissors, and reversing quickly/sharply enough in a flat scissors to get/keep your opponent out of plane.  Pulling for a shot requires lead.  This is aiming for/flying to a spot in front of your opponent.  If you do this in a scissors you'll end up in front of your opponent.  You'll end up doing a less-pronounced scissors, and make more forward progress than him.  That's exactly the opposite of what you want to do.

If you "race" to get the shot, or pull lead to get that shot, you'd better make it count.  Because you'll be getting shot at yourself very quickly if you don't...

Check out the scissors info here- http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/

Thanks Mtnman...makes sense. Will definitely be gettin' some practice.

[RedTop]

The main ho planes I see in the MA are.


1)typhoons
2)190s (mainly d9s)
3) p51s
4) me 262s
5) me 110s

The planeset...period.  Some may not work as well as others...but every plane will ho you.

[WMLute]

If you just assume everyone will do it, and set up the fight accordingly, you'll be amazed at how easy they are to avoid, and how easy it is to capitalize on someone who tries to HO...

Heck, I actually prefer for my opponents to go for the HO.  It makes them predictable.  Predictable makes them dead.

Quoted for truth.

[crutch]

offset, offset, offset.

a guy forcing the HO is generally an easy kill, not in a HO that is.

when they guy points his nose at you, accept it.  do NO fly directly at HIM tho.  offset maybe a half-gunsight to one side and start dropping your nose to go just under him.
If he continues to push for the HO shot. he will be correcting on your by diving and turning.

all this has been setting him up for a lead-turn reversal.

here is the 'tricky' part. just befor he opens fire. roll into him and pull hard Gs across his nose.  this, at best, gives him a snap-shot.
Now, almost as soon as you have pulled the Gs, let off the Gs, roll up-right and pull into a vertical move.
Roll to put him in view and decide what to do based on his reactions.
if he extends, loop onto his six.  if he flat turns, stay high and watch for an opening.
and worst case, roll away and extend to get out of a bad spot.

[CAP1]

I've gotten to the point where I can defend myself enough to get past the initial merge (maybe into a scissors or something), but now I seem to be dying in HO shots almost ever sortie. Am I just not doing something right? Any help as to why I'm falling prey to this tactic is greatly appreciated.

Koen

 i've been getting lucky.....been getting better at dodging. the thing to do, is to be unpredictable.

IT seems most that will ho ya, expect 2 things.

 1)dive under em. they expect this, because it's the most often given advice to avoid a ho.
 2) slight turn off to the side. they seem ready for this too. i've had guys that look like they stand on the rudder to get their shot as we pass when i do this.

 combine moves, and be smooth. keep your speed, and see what it looks like he's doing just after the shot. i've gotten guys, because i pulled up and over the top more smoothly than they did, thus conserving some e.
 i've seen guys just keep on goin, i've seen em yank around hard, tryin to get on my six.

 just think what would spoil your shot........

[Wreked]

The 1st reasonable HO thread I've seen here.

A series of informative and constructive replies regarding this ACM. If this were done more often (instead of the animosity filled posts from both sides you find in other threads) I think you would see a new understanding take hold in the MA.

Good on ya - interesting reading.

....cheers eh!

PS: crutch - "parallell/offset 100 yds" merge using rudder to bring guns to bear - didn't you put that out 10-15 years ago?? May have been someone else - my brain gets foggy that far back.  heheh

[crutch]

15 years? lol Im not quiet that old

[bj229r]

You have to realize sooner that it's going to be a HO.  Say you're coming over the top at the guy who is going to be coming nose up at you.  Your problem is you are looking for gun solution in a situation where the only gun solution you are going to get is a head on.  By the time you realize this, it's too late to safely avoid the HO.  You have to realize this early.  Once you begin to see the HO angles sooner, you want to come down off to the side (maybe offset 90 deg or so), and most likely go nose up again as your opponent comes up at you, and then is forced to bleed more E to turn 90 deg or so to get guns on you.  You will usually rope him out 10 seconds later and come down for guns in a very favorable position.

My problem in a nutshell (ok...ONE of them) Spits are my biggest grief in this--they turn so sharp so fast, a decent passing shot (on my part) turns into a HO on his part in the last couple seconds...and jug invariably gets oil hit at the least

[grizz441]

My problem in a nutshell (ok...ONE of them) Spits are my biggest grief in this--they turn so sharp so fast, a decent passing shot (on my part) turns into a HO on his part in the last couple seconds...and jug invariably gets oil hit at the least

Yes, you always have to give the TnB'ers a little more credit that they are going to flip their plane around on you for the head on.  I'd rather assume wrong on the HO and prepare to avoid it(and see I would have had a thin edge (1/8 shot) or something), than just hope he doesn't get it around and shoot me in the face.  Usually you should be able to tell with great certainty at 1k or so.  The trick is to realize asap that your gun solution will be a HO and attempt to set up this merge as you would your standard HO avoidal.  I will usually go nose down as early as possible and set up offset to the side, when they swing around for the HO they are forced to shoot at you nose down and off to the side as you prepare for your next maneuver.  

[CAP1]

My problem in a nutshell (ok...ONE of them) Spits are my biggest grief in this--they turn so sharp so fast, a decent passing shot (on my part) turns into a HO on his part in the last couple seconds...and jug invariably gets oil hit at the least

go to the ta, and find snaphook. he'll show ya what they're doin. it opened my eyes. i still can't counter their hard turn, 'cept to use the 38's tremendous vertical, but at least i know what they're doing.

[Bruv119]

Nononononono Ardy... Always point your nose at the 262 to HO and oblige him if he wants it.  No sane jet pilot will ever HO a HO'er.  

funny you say that grizz had dnkypunch in one the other week.  I'm in some 50cal plane (cannons he was dead) i turn in and setup for the HO, this is the only time I will go for it expecting him to chicken and the SOB went straight through me  .

got a tater on my wing for me only getting both his oil    guess he doesnt fly it often.....

as for avoiding ho's,  if you see one coming late, my best advice is to DUCK!!  try and and get underneath or to the side and then reverse.