Ok... maybe I'm wrong.

[TheWobble]

I too did a test today.
1 nissan 4x4, 1 too many beers.. tried to maintain a sliding 360 degree turn in k-mart parking lot
Conclusion:
my foot wide tires for some reason made the truck resist sliding and insted hopped like a giant red dog having a seazure:
Result: laughter and some old black dude in a station wagon shooting me the finger.

In summery it is determined that my truck is not perked.

[Lephturn]

Wobble, LOL.

-lazs-,

I think that's the point, you won't here from anyone able to do that.  Most of the time that folks make this claim I believe they either mis-judged the other guy's e state, or there was something else going on.

Funny how all of these claims always come from the guy that dies, and never from the guy that killed him.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"A pig is a jolly companion,
Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale,
Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you,
When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover,
You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!"
-- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Jekyll]

Hehe funked.

I knew you'd fall for that  

Which is why I also did THIS film  

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps

[funked]

LOL!  
I'll check that film out.

[wells]

E-bleed is greatest at corner speed.  Above or below that speed, e-loss will be less.  For arguments sake, say a Spitfire's corner speed is 250 mph.  Also, we'll say that 7G's is the most possible, either for structural or blackout limits (even though the blackout limit is a bit lower than that in AH).  The induced drag at 350 mph and 7G's is 1/2 that at 250 mph.  So, the lower the corner speed, the better the plane will retain E at high speeds.  I guess another way to look at that might be to take the ratio of maximum level speed to clean stall speed.  A higher ratio should give the plane good e-retention at high speed.

[gatt]

I ended my 180deg, flat, 5g, turn at 275mph IAS.

Woha Jekyll! What did the pilot smoke to be able to do such things? Thats another proof that is the pilot and not the machine, definitely.  

[niklas]

 

Also Wells did some calcs to show which planes should do better than others in this kind of thing. Not surprisingly, N1K2-J and Spitfires were on top

WELLS- You see, i told you that itīll happen ...

funked, Wells calculation was WITHOUT engine power. Add engine power and E-retention of a G10 is better than a Spitfire.

niklas

[Jekyll]

Hopefully Andy Bush might drop into this thread.

Maybe he can give us some idea of E bleed in a modern jet in a constant 5g 180 degree turn.

[Jekyll]

Wells, how does one go about calculating corner speed for a WW2 aircraft?

I don't mean just by testing flight performance, and picking the lowest speed where max G can be sustained.  Is there any mathematical formulae for calculating corner speed?

Reason I ask is this.  Considering that both WB and AH come from the same game designer, its surprising the difference in CV between both games.  In WB for example, CV for the F4U is around 300mph.  I would guess it is considerably less in Aces High.

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps

[Andy Bush]

Jekyll

Glad to help! Here's a F-16 maneuvering diagram that I've annotated. Note the somewhat 'flat' Ps=0 line at the 7.3 G area.

Anywhere below that line is a positive energy area. I added an approximate 5G line for emphasis. It is clear that the F-16 will gain energy in a 5G turn under these conditions.

 

Oops!! Sorry about that first picture...I goofed!

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 11-29-2000).]

[funked]

Niklas, you're right, sorry.

Jekyll, it looked like about 270 mph after a 180?  That's consistent with what Gatt and I were getting.  Looks like you were doing a better job of holding the g constant than I was, too.  Good flying.

[funked]

PS, corner speed in AH and WB is determined by blackout.  AH has a lower blackout threshold, so it will have a lower corner speed even if aircraft performance is identical to WB.

[gatt]

Funked, Wells and Andy,
are these results consistent with the real thing? Take the real pilon races, for example, at what speed do they usual enter the 180° turn and what speed do they have after it?

[gatt]

Toc-toc ... earth calls FM gurus ....

[Jekyll]

 

PS, corner speed in AH and WB is determined by blackout. AH has a lower blackout threshold, so it will have a lower corner speed even if aircraft performance is identical to WB.

Err funked.. you wanna consider this again?  IIRC corner speed is the lowest airspeed at which an aircraft can achieve max G, and thereby achieve max turn rate.

SO, are you saying that AH aircraft achieve max turn rate at a lower airspeed than an identical WB aircraft?

And if so, which FM is right?

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps